# Food is a Right, not a privilege.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [June 23, 2006, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910 "2006-06-23T20:49:52Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/21 "2006-06-23T22:52:25Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> Which works for “pursuit of happiness,” I suppose, but how exactly are “life” and “liberty” actions?
In that context, those words mean the right to one’s own life (not to be killed capriciously) and the right to freedom, as opposed to slavery\*. They aren’t rights to tangible goods like food or clothes or medicines. I’m sure the founders would cringe at the idea that people had a “right” to be supoprted by the state.
Now, you might want to make a modern case for these rights, but invoking the founders to support a right to food isn’t going to work.
\*with the usual caveat that they were talking mostly about white males.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/22 "2006-06-23T23:07:37Z")
> [@John Mace](#):
>
> In that context, those words mean the right to one’s own life (not to be killed capriciously) and the right to freedom, as opposed to slavery\*. They aren’t rights to tangible goods like food or clothes or medicines. I’m sure the founders would cringe at the idea that people had a “right” to be supoprted by the state.
I wasn’t arguing that food is necessarily a right. I was rebutting this statement:
> [@sleestak](#):
>
> The term rights, as I learned it, in the political sense concerns actions available to individuals.
Rights are not necessarily actions. Being “free” is not an action, it is a state of being, yet is still explicitly labeled as an inalienable right in the DoI by the founding fathers.
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### Author:  [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/23 "2006-06-23T23:23:41Z")
> [@glee](#):
>
> Although I’m pretty sure you were wittily referring to ‘the poor man has the right to sleep on the street; the rich man has the right to sleep in a mansion’, I’d like to point out that apparently the ruling is that a rich **home owner** can indeed have free food in parks - only the homeless can’t.
Actually, i think he was riffing on the famous Anatole France quote: “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.”
> [@glee](#):
>
> A society can be judged by how it treats those with the least. (I am not bothered if there is a right involved.)
I agree.
Also, i think it’s worth looking at the specific situation that raised the ire of the OP in this thread. If we look beyond the sign claiming that food is a right, we see that this story is not, in fact, about asking people to give food unwillingly. There are people and organizations perfectly willing, with no coercion or state imposition whatsoever, to give food to the homeless in Orlando.
The problem is that local businesses don’t like those shopper-discouraging homeless people hanging around the city, and are asking the state to intercede on their behalf to effectively ban this charitable giving. If there’s anyone here who feels that the world owes them a living, it’s the people who are protesting against the food distribution.
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### Author:  [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/24 "2006-06-24T00:58:25Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> I wasn’t arguing that food is necessarily a right. I was rebutting this statement:
>
> Rights are not necessarily actions. Being “free” is not an action, it is a state of being, yet is still explicitly labeled as an inalienable right in the DoI by the founding fathers.
You sure about that? I just checked and here are the sentences in the Declaration of Independence that have the word ‘free’ in them.
> [@](#):
>
> For abolishing the _free_ System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies.
> [@](#):
>
> A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a _free_ people.
> [@](#):
>
> We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be _Free_ and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as _Free_ and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
The DoI does state:
> [@](#):
>
> We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness
The right to Life is a limit on what others can do. While it is not an action a person can take, it is a limit on actions another individual can take.
Slee
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/25 "2006-06-24T02:24:10Z")
> [@sleestak](#):
>
> You sure about that? I just checked and here are the sentences in the Declaration of Independence that have the word ‘free’ in them.
Read the post from **John Mace** to which I was responding. He defines “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” as “freedom from slavery.” My point was, even using that interpretation, my first post in this thread still stands. Not all rights are defined in terms of actions one is allowed to undertake.
> [@](#):
>
> The right to Life is a limit on what others can do. While it is not an action a person can take, it is a limit on actions another individual can take.
Okay, then I maintain that “food is a right,” in so far as the government may not take an action that prevents people from feeding other people.
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### Author:  [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/26 "2006-06-24T02:51:16Z")
Relevant thread: [Death by starvation in the U.S.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=367416)
No, there is no inalienable human right for food. There’s no human right for oxygen, either. We just have an excess of both in this country. No homeless person ever starved to death in this country, unless they’re too proud to dumpster-dive, or are hopelessly mentally ill. Other countries, yeah, starvation is a problem. But it’s not a human right.
Keep in mind, these so-called “human rights” are a purely American conceit. We’re rich enough, and socially liberal enough, to extend such “rights” to all American citizens. (And “citizen” is the key word here…think of [Camp X-Ray](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_X-Ray), for instance!)
As for the Florida measure itself, it’s NOT about denying food to homeless at all, it’s just that they’re not allowed to do it in _public parks_ anymore. Basically, it’s your typical Red State tactic appealing to rich, white, Christian people, enticing them to vote Republican again this November. Pure politics, kinda sleazy, but I ain’t losing sleep over it.
If the homeless don’t like it, move to Venice Beach, CA. It’s the Transient Shangri-La here!! 🆒
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### Author:  [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/27 "2006-06-24T02:52:16Z")
Speaking as a Christian, I’d say that yes, food is a right. We live in the richest society in the world. The least we can do is make sure that people aren’t starving to death on our own streets. From a legal standpoint, I’d say that interfering with the distribution of charitable aid does qualify as infringing on the right to life.
Let’s not delude ourselves as to why this law was passed. They want to make the homeless people less visible. From one of the linked articles:
> [@](#):
>
> The point of the ordinance, Sheehan said, isn’t to hinder charitable work, but to take control of unregulated events and direct them to proper venues.
The “proper venues” are, of course, anywhere where the homeless people will be out of sight and out of mind.
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### Author:  [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/28 "2006-06-24T03:12:14Z")
“Erst kommt das Fressen, dann kommt die Moral.”
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/29 "2006-06-24T03:16:06Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#):
>
> What difference do the other rights mean if you starve to death?
Agreed.
> [@aldiboronti](#):
>
> One might as well say what good are the other rights if we get ill and die. Does that mean we have the right to free medical treatment?
In a civilized country, yes. To the extent it can be afforded.
Survival is a right, and you need food to survive. I’d say not only is food a right, but if you have no other legal means of getting it you have the right to take it, by force if neccessary. And as a practical matter, what are you going to threaten someone who’s starving with ?
If you don’t like that position, too bad. If the life of a poor man doesn’t matter to you, why should yours to him ?
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### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/30 "2006-06-24T03:54:24Z")
It’s funny that we would pick something like this to agree on, dude. Did I just enter the Twilight Zone or something?
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### Author:  [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/31 "2006-06-24T04:13:34Z")
> [@KGS](#):
>
> Keep in mind, these so-called “human rights” are a purely American conceit.
That’s right.
The concept has absolutely no relevance at all anywhere else in the world. No-one else even considers the possibility of [human rights](http://www.un.org/rights/). :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/32 "2006-06-24T04:14:54Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#):
>
> It’s funny that we would pick something like this to agree on, dude. Did I just enter the Twilight Zone or something?
No, this is just that basic an issue. We’d probably get into screaming arguements over the details of _how_ to feed the starving.
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### Author:  [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/33 "2006-06-24T04:28:07Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#):
>
> One might as well say what good are the other rights if we get ill and die. Does that mean we have the right to free medical treatment?
Don’t we already? Hospitals are not allowed to refuse treatment for life-threatening conditions. They can do the bare minimum and send you on your way ASAP but they can’t turn you away, whether you can pay or not. Doesn’t that constitute free medical treatment?
Not many people choose to be poor. Don’t you think they deserve a shot at the prize like the one you have? Is a poor person likely to intentionally cause severe injury to himself for laughs, or is it out of his hands? Should we turn someone away because of bad luck?
We can get into a discussion about the ethics of such a policy, but I think you’d find it hard to argue that “freeloading” is unethical when we’re talking about homeless kids or down-on-their luck indigent people.
Jesus Christ, what am I saying? When did I turn into a socialist?
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### Author:  [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/34 "2006-06-24T04:53:41Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#):
>
> Jesus Christ, what am I saying? When did I turn into a socialist?
Nah, giving a shit about other human beings doesn’t make you a socialist. Just a decent person.
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### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/35 "2006-06-24T07:52:08Z")
And thank you for your service to your country, **Airman Doors**.
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### Author:  [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/36 "2006-06-24T08:43:41Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#):
>
> One might as well say what good are the other rights if we get ill and die. Does that mean we have the right to free medical treatment?
In my book, yes. But then, I’m a damned British commie.
In all seriousness, there is a school of thought that says that we have obligations to our fellow humans (or to society, if you prefer) as well as rights- and in this case, it is an obligation for the wealthier members of society to provide subsistence-level noursihment to the homeless. IMO.
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### Author:  [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/37 "2006-06-24T11:52:29Z")
Well, back just before World War II, we defined the ideals we stood for as a country, the [Four Freedoms](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms). But of course this only appealed to noted Commies and other radical left-wingers like FDR, the U.S. Congress, Norman Rockwell, the majority of Americans of the day, etc. Good thing we’ve learned better over the years, and have a stalwart leader like GWB to clarify to us what’s **really** morally important. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/38 "2006-06-24T12:15:53Z")
There must be a Bush corollary to Godwin’s Law by now.
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### Author:  [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/39 "2006-06-24T13:52:37Z")
Woah. Freedom from hunger or starvation is not a basic human right? Wow.
On a strictly practical note-feeding the hungry and homeless keeps these folks somewhat nourished and able to ward off disease. Starving people are meccas for pathogens. One of the basic tenets of nursing is hygiene–decent nutrition, an intact skin and adequate cleanliness are excellent barriers to infection.
I am somewhat appalled at the callous attitude of some of these posts. We are the only Western country that does not consider basic health care a right–and our overburdened emergency rooms and the high cost of any medical care reflects that.
What are we here for–if not to help one another? We are social animals–and belonging to society incurs certain responsibilities. Who would not feed a crying baby? Does that kid have a “right” to milk? What kind of question is that? Of course a child has a right to food. So why not adults? We kicked most of the mentally ill into the streets–shall we let them starve as well?
If I lived in Orlando, I would (well, first I would shoot myself for living in an area that is innudated with tourists year round)–not frequent the businesses that support this ruling. Are we back to Victorian times? Haven’t we grown as people or a society at all?
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/40 "2006-06-24T14:29:52Z")
I don’t know about rights, but the fact that a government has an obligation to prevent its citizens from starving to death is pretty much a no-brainer. This isn’t an American thing, nor is it a modern thing - it applies to any government, anywhere, at any period in history. A government that can’t do that has no right to govern.
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