# Food is a Right, not a privilege.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [June 23, 2006, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910 "2006-06-23T20:49:52Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 7
### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2006, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/121 "2006-06-26T22:18:43Z")
> [@Sweet Mercury](#):
>
> Can the law force an individual to give to charity? Should it be able to?
It can and does. It’s called taxes. Not all of them, but a portion.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/122 "2006-06-27T00:04:45Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> I don’t know what I’d do, but I doubt it would be that. I’d probably look for work sweeping up in a garage after hours or something. Maybe even panhandle. I would not sit down on my ass and whine about some imaginary right I have for other people to feed me.
Ah, yes, because in _all of human history_ no one has _ever_ been too poor to afford food.
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> There you go frothing into insane land again. Back it up a little **DT**. No one is murdering anyone.
Hoarding food and letting others die is murder; no different than if you machine gunned your victims.
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> And if they barge into a restaurant they will run the risk of beatings or jail, or both.
And if the are _starving_, they won’t care. And they won’t be beaten, because they’ll probaly have guns and come in firing; they might get shot, but not beaten. They’ll probably make a point of killing the patrons as well, given the open class war your idea of “rights” amounts to.
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> And if they get to jail the problem of them being fed is solved.
Because unlike poor people in your world, _criminals_ have a right to food. Nice to know you think being poor is worse than murder.
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/123 "2006-06-27T03:43:40Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#):
>
> Ah, yes, because in _all of human history_ no one has _ever_ been too poor to afford food.
I don’t know what this has to do with the discussion. Yes, people have been poor. and if they are in a benevolent society there will be some help. If not, the society is one that needs improving. Again, the type of rights comes into issue, i.e., natural vs social contract vs statute.
> [@Der Trihs](#):
>
> Hoarding food and letting others die is murder; no different than if you machine gunned your victims.
You keep trying to help your argument by implying hoarding. If I go pick a bunch of apples in the wilderness they are mine to do with what I want. If I pick all the apples and hoard them to the degree that there are no other apples and I can’t sell or use them all, then I’d dsay you have a right to them (assumiing this is the only source of food).
> [@Der Trihs](#):
>
> And if the are _starving_, they won’t care. And they won’t be beaten, because they’ll probaly have guns and come in firing; they might get shot, but not beaten. They’ll probably make a point of killing the patrons as well, given the open class war your idea of “rights” amounts to.
They are free to choose the break the law at any point. They will have to live with the consequences (if any), as well. Now, the non-starving in society may choose to act in their own best interest and provide enough food so that people aren’t tempted to take such an option, but that does not make food a right. That’s enlightened self-interest at work. Both in terms of their own immediate security and a safety net for themselves if things ever go bad for them.
> [@Der Trihs](#):
>
> Because unlike poor people in your world, _criminals_ have a right to food. Nice to know you think being poor is worse than murder.
:rolleyes: The reason criminals have a right to food is because locking them away deprives them of the ability to get it for themselves. Now, if you want to say that they should earn their food even in prison through some type of labor, I’m all for it. As long as the process doesn’t raise security issues. I’m all for the chain gang when possible.
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### Author:  [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/124 "2006-06-27T06:04:19Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#):
>
> As far as I’m concerned, if I’m starving and have no _legal_ means of feeding myself, I have the right to take that sandwich; and if you don’t have a sandwich, I have the moral right to kill and eat _you_. After all, you are part of the system that wants to kill me. If society has decreed my death, for no other crime than a lack of resources, then it has also decreed the end of all social obligations and morality. If I have no right to live than I have no rights at all, and society is nothing more than a Hobbesian war of all against all and no one owes anyone any consideration at all.
A _moral_ right to kill and eat me? I do not think that word means what you think it means. Besides which I am old, tough and sour, I’d likely kill YOU if you ate me 😃
I don’t understand where you are getting the idea that “society wants to kill you” and “society has decreed your death”. There is nowhere in this society where you have no legal means of feeding yourself, unless it’s the backwoods of Montana or some such. And if you are, in fact, in the backwoods of Montana, you have an duty and obligation to be accountable for YOURSELF and take care of your OWN needs.
And “society” aside, if you run across another person, whom you consider an easier means to an end (for eating) than actually caring for your own self, not only does that person have a right to defend themselves from your uselessness by any means necessary, but society has every right to prevent you from carrying on that way and endangering anyone through your psychotic beliefs and possible actions based upon those beliefs.
And that is all aside from the fact that it is HIGHLY unlikely that anyone is going to be allowed to starve to death in America.
Anyway…
Where do you get from the completely insane idea that “society is out to kill you”.
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### Author:  [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/125 "2006-06-27T08:46:45Z")
**magellan01** - you and I obviously have different views of what being a memeber of society means.
You seem to feel it is based on productivity, I think that by simply being alive and existing in a society, one is a member of it.
BTW, the UN agrees with me.
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### Author:  [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/126 "2006-06-27T13:49:26Z")
> [@irishgirl](#):
>
> BTW, the UN agrees with me.
Well, that argument won’t get you anywhere with Americans.
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/127 "2006-06-27T14:27:28Z")
> [@asterion](#):
>
> Well, that argument won’t get you anywhere with Americans.
[Except George W. Bush](http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/decade/sect2.html), when it is convenient.
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/128 "2006-06-27T15:41:59Z")
> [@irishgirl](#):
>
> **magellan01** - you and I obviously have different views of what being a memeber of society means.
Probably. But the discussion is not about how far a society should or could go in providing for its members, it is about rights.
> [@irishgirl](#):
>
> You seem to feel it is based on productivity, I think that by simply being alive and existing in a society, one is a member of it.
Well, in the sense that if you contribute nothing to it—but a are able to—you have no right to expect anything out of it, yes. And doing enough work—again, of you are able—to feed yourself, seems to require a very, very, low level of participation. Still, I have no problem with the society as a whole providing whatever it wants for its members. But those thiings do not automatiically equate to “rights” in the philosophical sense, as I took the OP to mean. Although I think that "extending too many rights can be onerous and counter-productive, if people want to join into that type of arrangement, they do have a right to self-determination. But if they go to far they could wind up in a socialist or a communist state. In which case they might soon lose the ability to control their own destinies at all.
> [@irishgirl](#):
>
> BTW, the UN agrees with me.
In what way?
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/129 "2006-06-27T15:47:37Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> Again, the type of rights comes into issue, i.e., natural vs social contract vs statute.
There’s no such thing as a natural right; rights are a purely human concept.
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> You keep trying to help your argument by implying hoarding.
No, your entire argument is the justification of hoarding.
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> :rolleyes: The reason criminals have a right to food is because locking them away deprives them of the ability to get it for themselves.
And therefore have to give food to them, because they have a right to live unless we specifically execute them.
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> I’m all for the chain gang when possible.
Why am I not surprised you support slavery ?
> [@CanvasShoes](#):
>
> I don’t understand where you are getting the idea that “society wants to kill you” and “society has decreed your death”. There is nowhere in this society where you have no legal means of feeding yourself, unless it’s the backwoods of Montana or some such.
What part of “hypothetical” do you not understand ? I’m talking about my position _if_ I am starving and _if_ I can’t legally get food.
> [@](#):
>
> And that is all aside from the fact that it is HIGHLY unlikely that anyone is going to be allowed to starve to death in America.
If there’s ever another Great Depression, I expect millions will starve. We are, person for person and dollar for dollar, one of the least charitable countries on Earth. There’s a great deal of American charity because our vast wealth means a small percentage amounts to a lot of money, but we are a cold, hard hearted people. Take away that wealth and people will be left to starve right and left, and most Americans won’t care in the slightest.
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/130 "2006-06-27T18:02:49Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#):
>
> There’s no such thing as a natural right; rights are a purely human concept.
In your extreme warped verision of atheism, sure. In my my view, and the view of the Founders, natural rights exist.
> [@Der Trihs](#):
>
> No, your entire argument is the justification of hoarding.
No, you have to be able to put whatever it is to good use.
> [@Der Trihs](#):
>
> And therefore have to give food to them, because they have a right to live unless we specifically execute them.
Try paying attention this time. No one has a right to food. They have a right to get food on their own. When we lock them up and deprive them of the ability to get their own food, we _then_ have a responsiblility to give it to them.
> [@Der Trihs](#):
>
> Why am I not surprised you support slavery ?
Uh-oh, you found me out. Oh wait, punishment for misdeeds does not equal slavery. :rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@Sweet\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Mercury)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/131 "2006-06-27T19:40:01Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> It can and does. It’s called taxes. Not all of them, but a portion.
Yeah, I thought of that after I posted. (Stupid board won’t let me edit!)
But, I still ask, should it?
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/132 "2006-06-27T20:01:17Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> In your extreme warped verision of atheism, sure. In my my view, and the view of the Founders, natural rights exist.
Where does religion come into it ? Rights or anything else decreed by a god are by definition not natural. As well, the Founders were slaveowning genocidal monsters, and I refuse to take such creatures advice on anything.
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> Try paying attention this time. No one has a right to food. They have a right to get food on their own.
The right to food = the right to survive, and without the right to survive you have no rights at all. If there is no right to food, then they ( and eveyone else ) have no right to get food; they have _no rights whatsoever_.
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> Uh-oh, you found me out. Oh wait, punishment for misdeeds does not equal slavery. :rolleyes:
Slavery is forced servitude; why they are forced is irrelevant.
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### Author:  [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/133 "2006-06-27T20:19:50Z")
Think you have a right to food? Fine, here’s a bowl of rice. That’s what most people in this world get and they work for it. What makes you think you have a right to more?
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### Author:  [@montana\_cricket](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/montana_cricket)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/134 "2006-06-27T20:29:10Z")
In my opinion there’s a difference between able bodied people who “need” and receive food/housing/other for free from public programs and those who are unable to procure those things for themselves. The old adage “give a man a fish, you’ll feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, you’ll feed him for a lifetime” should apply here. Why give it to them indefinitely if they are unwilling (not unable note, just unwilling) to work for it. I would support those who are able to do community service in exchange for food/housing. It’s called working for a living, and most people figure out a way to get the job done.
The idea of food as a right is appalling to me. What’s next? TV as a right? Eating out as a right? In our age of instant gratification and credit cards, personal accountability seems to have gone out the window. We have the right to work for our food, housing and other amenities. We have the responsibility to not expect something for nothing.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/135 "2006-06-27T20:43:52Z")
> [@Sweet Mercury](#):
>
> We do see that quite often in our society, no? Something that is done as an act of good will or compassion, when done enough, will become an “entitlement” in the eyes of some people.
Yes, we do. And it’s just like Kleenex or Xerox being used to describe any tissue paper or copy machine… it will happen, but it should be resisted by gentle correction every time it’s done.
> [@](#):
>
> The phrase “enforcable interest” is particularly useful in describing this situtation. Rights are enforcable by means of law—or other means. Can the law force an individual to give to charity? Should it be able to?
Generically, yes – taxes “force” individuals to contribute to government programs that constitute charity. I argue that the general rule should be to focus such programs NOT on simple charity – the purpose of government funded “handouts” should always be constructive. That is, the programs should always have a specific, tangible component of assistance AND of transition towards no longer needing assistance.
Private charity, however, while it may comendably include such transitional goals, should not insist on any conditions. Charity from individuals is an act for the benefit of the recipient that also gladdens the heart of the giver.
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### Author:  [@Sweet\_Mercury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Mercury)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/136 "2006-06-27T21:43:34Z")
That makes sense enough to me.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/137 "2006-06-27T21:51:06Z")
> [@montana cricket](#):
>
> The idea of food as a right is appalling to me. What’s next? TV as a right? Eating out as a right?
Neither of which have a thing to do with survival; nice strawman.
> [@montana cricket](#):
>
> In our age of instant gratification and credit cards, personal accountability seems to have gone out the window. We have the right to work for our food, housing and other amenities. We have the responsibility to not expect something for nothing.
And if they can’t find a job, or can’t afford enough to live even though they work ? Phrases like “personal accountability” and “personal responsibility” are conservative code that mean the exact opposite of the words. They are excuses for sociopathy, for someone who wants to let millions suffer and die and feel smugly self righteous at the same time.
When I hear someone use that phrase, I consider them to be either a dupe of the Right, or a monster. A fool or an enemy of humanity.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/138 "2006-06-27T21:52:40Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#):
>
> Think you have a right to food? Fine, here’s a bowl of rice. That’s what most people in this world get and they work for it. What makes you think you have a right to more?
Did I imply I did ?
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### Author:  [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/139 "2006-06-27T22:57:12Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#):
>
> Did I imply I did ?
So how much food does a person have a right to if they do no work for it? And what kind of food? You can talk about a right to food all you want, but until you quantify it it’s just theory.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2006, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/food-is-a-right-not-a-privilege/361910/140 "2006-06-27T23:13:38Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#):
>
> So how much food does a person have a right to if they do no work for it? And what kind of food? You can talk about a right to food all you want, but until you quantify it it’s just theory.
Enough to survive in good health on, of course. Just as I think we are entititled to health care but not non-reconstructive cosmetic surgery.
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