# Football Concussions, the next Big Thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2012, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696 "2012-07-19T08:46:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/41 "2012-11-17T22:39:23Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > You could make the same argument for not having any regulations to prevent coal mining disasters. Coal miners are not paid anything like football players. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/42 "2012-11-17T23:03:05Z")
They’re paid better than _somebody_. In fact in a lot of contexts, coal miners are among the best paid in their communities. Is there some objective income at which you can categorically state that there is no need to take reasonable steps to protect the health of the workers? And by not taking steps to protect the health of elite athletes—in terms of things like preventing injuries or doping—what you’re essentially saying is that _no one_ can even hope to compete in those fields without accepting a major trade-off to one’s long-term health. How is this any different than Roman gladiators? Why not allow battles to the death? Why not allow football players to carry truncheons or knives and use them on the field? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/43 "2012-11-19T17:43:54Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Why not allow battles to the death? Why not allow football players to carry truncheons or knives and use them on the field? Awesomeness overload? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/44 "2012-11-19T21:37:23Z")
> [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](#): > > Any adult choosing to play the game comes in knowing the risks (as long as the risks are reasonably set forth) and are paid a ton to do so (at the top level). But that’s the point- nobody came in knowing the risks until very recently. CTE is a pretty new diagnosis, and I can tell you with perfect confidence that between 1985-1990 when I was playing middle school and high school football, I was specifically instructed to lead with my head as a defensive tackle and offensive guard. Had I known, or my parents known, or even my coaches known about the possibility of CTE, I doubt that would have been done. That’s the thing- I think concussion treatment is what will lose the NFL their suit, but what’ll ultimately cost them the most money will be the CTE claims from linemen and linebackers who didn’t ever actually get any concussions. Hopefully, football will morph back into some kind of 1940’s-1950’s leather-helmet game, but I fear that it’ll end up no-contact or a historical curiosity. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/45 "2012-11-22T00:45:07Z")
I think the mounting evidence of long term damage mean rule changes are inevitable. Any sporting code that fails to respond to medical issues like this is inviting litigation in my opinion. Just this week the Australian rugby league [banned the shoulder charge](http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10849098) (despite some disgruntlement from players) on medical grounds. Roughly two thirds of the hits from this [2012 NRL highlights](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq2Xb3BQZyY) reel would now be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/46 "2012-11-23T04:35:04Z")
This is why the harsh old tort rules of contributory negligence and assumption of risk were put into place at the start. Without them, everyone starts looking for a payday. Even before the discovery of CTE or that lung cancer causes smoking, didn’t people know that slamming heads together repeatedly or that repeatedly inhaling tar filled smoke might be bad for you? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2012, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/47 "2012-11-23T05:06:15Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Without them, everyone starts looking for a payday. Even before the discovery of CTE or that lung cancer causes smoking, didn’t people know that slamming heads together repeatedly or that repeatedly inhaling tar filled smoke might be bad for you? Back when I played football in middle school and high school back in the late 80s and early 90s the only things I worried about were the possibilities of a concussion, a broken limb or the slim possibility of a catastrophic injury of some sort. We knew our activities carried some risks associated with them but our understanding of at risk was incomplete. I don’t believe my school district, coaches or even the doctor who gave me my physical were aware of the possibility of CTE. Now the NFL is aware of the problem though. They may have been aware of it for a number of years. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/48 "2015-11-26T02:52:40Z")
> [@](#): > > Frank Gifford, the Pro Football Hall of Famer and USC All-American who died of natural causes in August, suffered from a degenerative brain disease linked to repeated head trauma, his family announced Wednesday. > **[NFL great Frank Gifford had degenerative brain disease, family announces](https://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-sn-frank-gifford-brain-cte-20151125-story.html)** > > Frank Gifford, the Pro Football Hall of Famer and USC All-American who died of natural causes in August, suffered from a degenerative brain disease linked to repeated head trauma, his family announced Wednesday. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/49 "2015-11-26T04:37:11Z")
I do not see football surviving as a high school or a college sport for the same reason neither boxing nor MMA are high school and college sports (are they? I guess I don’t actually know…). Forget whether or not we can “manage concussions.” As an ED physician, I’d suggest that is simply impossible. Moms will steer kids away, and the pipeline will dry up at the same time that regulations and lawyers kill it. So the question will become whether you can have pro football without a great feeder system, and I don’t think you can. I give it twenty years to die, at which point it will be an interesting relic. Might help soccer, which in the US has been on life support for decades. 🙂 Lot more injuries, but they tend to be fixable, unlike repetitive brain injury. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/50 "2015-11-26T04:49:08Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Even before the discovery of CTE or that lung cancer causes smoking, didn’t people know that slamming heads together repeatedly or that repeatedly inhaling tar filled smoke might be bad for you? I know this is a three-year-old post, but since **PastTense** reopened the thread with an update, I’ll just point out that the whole point of the tobacco-company lawsuits was that the companies deliberately **downplayed and concealed** evidence that inhaling that smoke might be bad for you. Yes, consumers have a responsibility to exercise reasonable caution and awareness of risks, but that doesn’t mean that it’s okay for marketers to deliberately try to fool them about the nature and severity of the risks. IANAL but it seems to me that the legal consequences of the recent discovery of CTE in football players will similarly hinge on whether the industry had significant evidence of previously undocumented risk levels that they tried to hide from the participants. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/51 "2015-11-26T05:19:39Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > IANAL but it seems to me that the legal consequences of the recent discovery of CTE in football players will similarly hinge on whether the industry had significant evidence of previously undocumented risk levels that they tried to hide from the participants. Back in 1994 the NFL created the Mild Traumatic Brain Injury committee. As chair, they appointed the team doctor of the New York Jets who was a rheumatologist. He lacked any previous experience in brain science. Frontline did an expose of the NFL’s foot dragging a couple of years ago: > **[Timeline: The NFL’s Concussion Crisis – League of Denial: The NFL's...](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sports/league-of-denial/timeline-the-nfls-concussion-crisis/)** > > What did the NFL know and when did it know it? To help answer that question we've created a dual chronology, with growing scientific concern about the link between football and brain disease on the left-hand column, and the NFL's public statements... ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/52 "2015-11-26T09:45:51Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Might help soccer, which in the US has been on life support for decades. 🙂 Lot more injuries You got a particular cite in mind for that? I’m seeing way conflicting ones, like [this one](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3418954/)that concludes the opposite. Or did you mean specifically kids, which[this study](http://www.momsteam.com/return-play/injury-rate-in-youth-soccer-higher-than-other-contact-sports-study-finds) seems to bear out. ---
**Author:** ![Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/channing_idaho_banks/32/250_2.png) [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Channing_Idaho_Banks)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/53 "2015-11-26T10:40:40Z")
What’s up with elk, moose, and deer? Do they get concussions when they butt heads? Is the biggest, most dominant animal the one with the most messed up brain? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/54 "2015-11-26T11:27:13Z")
> [@Channing\_Idaho\_Banks](#): > > What’s up with elk, moose, and deer? Do they get concussions when they butt heads? Is the biggest, most dominant animal the one with the most messed up brain? [Bird Brains and Ram Horns: Clues on Concussions](http://www.plexusinstitute.org/blogpost/656763/177147/Bird-Brains-and-Ram-Horns-Clues-on-Concussions) > [@](#): > > Woodpeckers bang their heads into the hard wood of trees thousands of times a day, and yet there is no evidence they get concussions. Long horn rams bash their heads together in frequent rituals that involve collisions at speeds of 20 to 40 miles an hour, and they don’t seem to suffer brain damage either. […] > > Materials scientist Ainissa G. Ramirez, PhD, coauthor of Newton’s Football: The Science Behind America’s Game, quotes materials scientist and MIT Professor Lorna Gibson in a Huffington Post piece about woodpecker brains. Gibson, who has studied woodpeckers, explains, “It’s a scaling phenomenon.” A woodpecker brain is only about two grams-the mass of two paperclips, compared with a human brain, which averages about 1,400 grams. The lighter the brain, the better it will survive impact, Ramirez writes. She adds by way of explanation that if you drop a cell phone on the floor it will probably not be damaged, but a lap top dropped from the same height may need serious repair. Further, woodpecker brains are oriented at a 90 degree angle so that head-on force is widely distributed, and they fit snugly inside the skull with little room to slosh around. > > LiveScience writer Stephanie Pappas gives even more detail. Researchers have found woodpeckers have thick neck muscles that diffuse blows, and a third inner eyelid that prevents the birds’ eyes from popping out during repetitious hammering. The thick spongy bone surrounding the woodpecker brain has tiny projections that form a mineral mesh, Pappas writes, suggesting a microstructure that may act as armor for the brain. And she reports Chinese researchers have found the woodpecker’s beak may have a microstructure designed to absorb impact rather than transferring it toward the brain. […] > > Ram’s horn is porous bone covered with keratin, an elastic protein material that allows horns to give a little under impact. In addition to distributing the impact of the force, the flexible horn also lengthens the duration of the impact, which lessens the force. Writing in The New York Times, Gregory D. Meyer, PhD, director of Sports Medicine at Cincinnati Children’s Hospital Medical Center, says big horn sheep also have mechanisms that slow the return of blood from the head to the body, increasing the blood volume that fills their brains’ vascular tree. In effect, both woodpeckers and rams have brains protected by the physiological equivalent of Bubble Wrap. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/55 "2015-11-26T12:54:04Z")
Since the thread has been bumped, I’ll link to three articles about deaths from concussion in the game of rugby, which is like American Football but no armour is worn. [http://www.citynews.ca/2015/11/25/ontario-introduces-concussion-bill-named-after-teen-rugby-player-who-died/](http://www.citynews.ca/2015/11/25/ontario-introduces-concussion-bill-named-after-teen-rugby-player-who-died/) > **[Ben Robinson's rugby death is first of its kind in Northern Ireland](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23943642)** > > The first death in Northern Ireland, and 'probably' in the UK, due to second impact syndrome is recorded in Belfast at the inquest of a 14-year-old rugby player. > **[Five deaths from head injuries in amateur rugby union](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/13/five-deaths-from-head-injuries-amateur-rugby-union)** > > Rowan Stringer, Willie Halaifonua, Yusuf Zaidi, Eric Pelly and Tommie Watson all died from injuries suffered during matches ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bruce\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/56 "2015-11-26T16:00:09Z")
I can’t help but laugh at predictions of American football going away anytime soon. I simply can not envision a day without football in my lifetime with all the money made at the NCAA and Professional levels. Now we now have fantasy leagues which have grown enormously in popularity since this thread was started 3 years ago. The game will be heavily regulated at all levels with increasing regulations going down towards college and high school levels. Hockey players get concussions, rugby players, even [soccer players](http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/14/health/youth-soccer-safety/). A global sports culture is not gonna just disappear. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/57 "2015-11-26T18:29:35Z")
I don’t think very many people have postulates that the global sports culture will disappear, but that American football will not survive in its current form. There’s no reason to believe that the NFL would be powerless to adapt. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2015, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/58 "2015-11-26T21:45:37Z")
Watch about 10 seconds of a rugby game on youtube (where clips are edited for maximum action). Compare the tackles and, esp. the blocks - they do not use their heads as battering rams, as is done in American football. I was never good at sports, so my football “training” consisted of backyard chaos - we were told to “put a shoulder into it” to block, and grab the legs -preferably from the side - to tackle. I gather the advent of the massive pads and esp. the helmet, caused the instruction to change. I see that Monday Night Football no longer shows the opposing helmets crashing into each other and being smashed to smithereens. That charming graphic lasted 20 years - almost as long as Marshall Dillon was gunning down the bad guy at the start of _Gunsmoke_ (charming name, btw) Way to imprint violence on the young, folks. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/59 "2015-11-30T06:59:52Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > I can’t help but laugh at predictions of American football going away anytime soon. Are there any in this thread? From what I can tell, the predictions are talking about a ~20-year span. ---
**Author:** ![coremelt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@coremelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coremelt)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/60 "2015-11-30T08:11:01Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > Watch about 10 seconds of a rugby game on youtube (where clips are edited for maximum action). > Compare the tackles and, esp. the blocks - they do not use their heads as battering rams, as is done in American football. Head butting is completely banned in both Rugby and Australian Rules Football. Would it change the game dramatically to just introduce a similar rule and get people to use their shoulders to charge and block instead of their heads? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696.md?page=4)