# Football Concussions, the next Big Thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 19, 2012, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696 "2012-07-19T08:46:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/61 "2015-11-30T12:19:04Z")
> [@coremelt](#): > > Head butting is completely banned in both Rugby and Australian Rules Football. Would it change the game dramatically to just introduce a similar rule and get people to use their shoulders to charge and block instead of their heads? I believe in American football you are not supposed to lower your head when you tackle. Forget the long-term effect of concussions; spearing head first can paralyze you instantly. ---
**Author:** ![piepiepie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@piepiepie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/piepiepie)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/62 "2015-11-30T13:27:34Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > I believe in American football you are not supposed to lower your head when you tackle. Forget the long-term effect of concussions; spearing head first can paralyze you instantly. In college, you would get penalized for targeting and ejected from the game. In the NFL, it’s a personal foul for unnecessary roughness for leading with the crown of your helmet. Both have people on the sidelines that are supposed to enact “concussion protocols” whenever they suspect a head injury (lot of good that did [Case Keenum](http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14248158/st-louis-rams-penalized-nfl-case-keenum-concussion) last week). The NFL also promotes a “head’s up” tackling initiative to re-teach kids how to tackle so they see what they’re tackling instead of trying to blow up people. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/63 "2015-11-30T13:31:25Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > I can’t help but laugh at predictions of American football going away anytime soon. As a matter of fact, they are more popular than ever and recently started touring again. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/64 "2015-12-08T17:05:32Z")
And a [female rugby player](http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/dec/08/devon-female-rugby-player-dies-head-injury) has just died from a head injury. Concussion is suspected of being a contributory factor. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/65 "2015-12-08T17:31:02Z")
> [@piepiepie](#): > > The NFL also promotes a “head’s up” tackling initiative to re-teach kids how to tackle so they see what they’re tackling instead of trying to blow up people. They’ve been telling players that for decades, mostly to prevent neck injuries; in practice all it means is that they’ll hit with the facemask and the forehead part of the helmet, which isn’t any better. The thing that people are more or less ignoring with all the focus on concussions is that it’s NOT concussions that cause the majority of the problems. It’s the small, non-concussive impacts that accumulate over time and cause the issues. That’s why soccer players are at risk from heading the ball a lot- almost nobody gets concussions from heading the ball. American football linemen and linebackers are at particular risk for these kinds of impacts, as they’re taught to break the other guy’s charge with their heads- bighorn sheep style. So literally every play in practice and in games, they accumulate another one of those little hits. Common wisdom would have you think that Troy Aikman with his history of concussions would be at greater risk than say… Mark Stepnoski, but in reality, Stepnoski is probably at as high risk, or even more so, due to playing center rather than quarterback. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/66 "2016-01-27T22:29:59Z")
Another death, only 27: > [@](#): > > Former [University of Iowa] Hawkeye [and New York Giants] football player Tyler Sash suffered from the degenerative brain disease chronic traumatic encephalopathy, or C.T.E. Chris Nowinski of the Boston University-affiliated Concussion Legacy Foundation confirmed the diagnosis on Tuesday night. Representatives told his family Sash had an advanced stage rarely seen in someone his age. The 27-year-old Sash was found dead in his home in Oskaloosa September 8th… > > In October, an autopsy by the state medical examiner revealed Sash died from a fatal mixture of prescription painkillers. They included methadone and hydrocodone. The report also noted C.T.E. may have been involved in his death. The report shows Sash suffered bouts of confusion, memory loss and minor fits of temper. > **[Report: Former Hawkeye Tyler Sash Suffered From C.T.E.](https://www.kcrg.com/content/news/Report--366638751.html)** > > Former Hawkeye football player Tyler Sash suffered from the degenerative brain disease chronic traumatic encephalopathy, or C.T.E. That's according to a report in the New York Times. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/67 "2016-02-03T18:21:03Z")
And Ken Stabler: > [@](#): > > Former Oakland Raiders quarterback Ken Stabler, who died in 2015 from complications resulting from colon cancer, also suffered from the effects of the degenerative disease chronic traumatic encephalopathy, the doctor who examined his brain told ESPN’s Outside the Lines… > > Dr. Ann McKee, a professor of neurology and pathology at Boston University, said that after examining Stabler’s brain, it was clear he suffered from Stage 3 CTE and that the disease was widespread throughout his brain. > > “He had very substantial lesions. They were widespread. They were very classic. There was no question about the diagnosis,” McKee told Outside the Lines in an interview broadcast Wednesday. “And in some parts of the brain, they were very well established, meaning that he’d had it probably for quite some time.” > **[Doctor: 'No question' Stabler suffered from CTE](https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/14703416/outside-lines-nfl-great-ken-stabler-diagnosed-cte-death)** > > Former NFL quarterback Ken Stabler had CTE when he died in 2015, the doctor who examined his brain told ESPN's Outside The Lines. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/68 "2017-03-21T02:31:14Z")
**Football greats Dwight Clark, Gale Sayers battle brain diseases** > **[Football greats Dwight Clark, Gale Sayers battle brain diseases | CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2017/03/20/health/dwight-clark-als/index.html)** > > Dwight Clark and Gale Sayers are both NFL legends, and their struggles with brain disease were revealed this week. ---
**Author:** ![Cugel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cugel/32/1199_2.png) [@Cugel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cugel)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/69 "2017-03-21T08:47:46Z")
The [NRL](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rugby_League) has rules about concussions, I’m guessing mainly to try and evade lawsuits. > **[NRL issues record $350,000 in fines to clubs for breaching concussion rules](https://wwos.nine.com.au/nrl/nrl-to-breach-clubs-who-break-concussion-guidelines/5929bd41-e55a-43a4-bd4c-e157fe3eeec5)** > > The NRL has issued $350,000 worth of fines to clubs who breached concussion guidelines in round three. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/70 "2017-03-21T14:07:35Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I know this is a three-year-old post, but since **PastTense** reopened the thread with an update, I’ll just point out that the whole point of the tobacco-company lawsuits was that the companies deliberately **downplayed and concealed** evidence that inhaling that smoke might be bad for you. > > Yes, consumers have a responsibility to exercise reasonable caution and awareness of risks, but that doesn’t mean that it’s okay for marketers to deliberately try to fool them > about the nature and severity of the risks. > > IANAL but it seems to me that the legal consequences of the recent discovery of CTE in football players will similarly hinge on whether the industry had significant evidence of previously undocumented risk levels that they tried to hide from the participants. The thing is, it’s not concussions that are the real threat to most players. It’s what they call “subconcussive brain trauma”; i.e. those helmet-to-helmet hits that players make every single play, especially linemen and linebackersm that don’t even come close to being an actual concussion. Apparently these hits cause damage that accumulates over time and causes CTE, even if they never have a single concussion in their playing career. That, I think is going to be the elephant in the room at some point. The NFL is making a lot of noise about concussions, because that’s something they can possibly manage through rule and equipment changes that don’t fundamentally change the game. They either don’t want to, or are afraid to address the real issue, which is that the essential way that the game is played today contributes to CTE. It sure seems like a smokescreen to me- let’s concentrate on concussions and big hits and look like we’re doing something, while letting the real damaging stuff continue as before, business as usual. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/71 "2017-03-21T16:06:38Z")
Subconcussive brain trauma can’t be eliminated without eliminating the sport itself, because it can(and does) happen even if there is no direct contact to the head itself. A simple tackle can cause the head to jerk violently enough for it to happen. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/72 "2017-03-21T16:26:06Z")
And in football, those subconcussive impacts happen over and over and over again in the course of a single game. And add up over time. > [@furt](#): > > and you’re already have anecdotal stories of fathers – not mothers, _fathers_ – steering their sons away from the game because of the concussion risks. Damn straight. While I doubt my son will have any interest in playing tackle football - he’s more the artistic type - if he did, there’s no way in hell I’d sign whatever waiver they require to let him play. And re the NFL players, sure, they make a lot of money IF they have a long career, or did well enough at a skill position over a shorter time. But how can **any** amount of cash compensate for your brain going irrevocably haywire? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/73 "2017-03-21T17:10:50Z")
Not to you or me, but there are still people who want to be professional wrestlers, and that’s not even a real sport. Obviously, there probably isn’t another sport that has the same rate of sunconcussive hits, but I wonder if any other leagues are sweating too. That might draw things out even more. ---
**Author:** ![Onyerbike](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onyerbike/32/5402_2.png) [@Onyerbike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onyerbike)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2017, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/74 "2017-03-22T01:49:13Z")
The sport may be able to reduce concussions by changing the way bodies collide. Institute a penalty ‘head high’ tackle much as exists in Rugby Union or League. In those games if a tackle is completed by grabbing the head or neck, a penalty is given and the offending player will be referred to a judiciary where they can and often are suspended for many games. Even in junior games they are serious about good tackling form. Rugby League can be a rough game but I never got seriously hurt playing it because even as kids we were taught and taught and taught to tackle at the waist or legs. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/75 "2017-07-25T17:55:29Z")
**The latest brain study examined 111 former NFL players. Only one didn’t have CTE.** Note however that: > [@](#): > > McKee cautions that the study has some limitations and doesn’t attempt to pinpoint a CTE rate. The brains studied were mostly donated by concerned families, which means they weren’t random and not necessarily representative of all men who have played football. > > “A family is much more likely to donate if they’re concerned about their loved one — if they’re exhibiting symptoms or signs that are concerning them, or if they died accidentally or especially if they committed suicide,” she said. “It skews for accidental deaths, suicide and individuals with disabling or discomforting symptoms.” > **[The latest brain study examined 111 former NFL players. Only one didn’t have...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/the-latest-brain-study-examined-111-former-nfl-players-only-one-didnt-have-cte/2017/07/25/835b49e4-70bc-11e7-8839-ec48ec4cae25_story.html)** > > Boston University researchers found CTE in 99 percent of brains of former NFL players, and 87 percent of all football players. Brains studied were mostly donated by concerned families. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/76 "2017-07-26T12:00:09Z")
I have no doubt that playing football puts one’s brain at risk, and it wouldn’t bother me if the sport was drastically changed or even banned. That said, I wonder what the incidence of CTE-associated changes is in the general population, and what the outcome would be for a study where pathologists were blinded as to the source of the brains they examined (or if they were told that the brains were from football players when they weren’t). I am not a neuropathologist, but how much subjective interpretation is involved in these studies? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2017, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/77 "2017-07-26T12:45:48Z")
I haven’t seen this study in detail, but I have seen some results where even to a layperson it’s obvious there is something amiss when the brain of a person is compared to a non-damaged brain so in at least some cases the difference is dramatic and not something to be argued. But that’s a good point - were all the damaged brains in this study that obvious, or were there some near-normal and requiring an expert to determine that there was damage? ---
**Author:** ![El\_DeLuxo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_deluxo/32/9043_2.png) [@El\_DeLuxo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_DeLuxo)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2017, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/78 "2017-07-27T01:45:26Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Why not allow football players to carry truncheons or knives and use them on the field? Well, I’ve always said that if they wanted _me_ to watch football, they’d have to change the rules to allow knives, clubs and 2’ lengths of chain… ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2017, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/79 "2017-07-27T01:53:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Subconcussive brain trauma can’t be eliminated **without eliminating the sport itself,** because it can(and does) happen even if there is no direct contact to the head itself. A simple tackle can cause the head to jerk violently enough for it to happen. And the place to start is with juveniles. Ban high school football and let Texas commit mass seppuku. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2017, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696/80 "2017-07-27T02:06:44Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Back when I played football in middle school and high school back in the late 80s and early 90s the only things I worried about were the possibilities of a concussion, a broken limb or the slim possibility of a catastrophic injury of some sort. We knew our activities carried some risks associated with them but our understanding of at risk was incomplete. I don’t believe my school district, coaches or even the doctor who gave me my physical were aware of the possibility of CTE. Now the NFL is aware of the problem though. They may have been aware of it for a number of years. Yeah, it wasn’t even on the radar of risks that we were taking in the late 80s/early 90s. Back then it was pretty much assumed you’d get minor injuries- bruises, sprains, strains, etc… and the chances of getting injured more seriously were large, although not definite. And we all knew that we ran the very slight risk of being that one kid per year who had some sort of catastrophic neurological injury- either broken neck/paralysis or outright death. But at no point did anyone say “Every hit does a tiny amount of brain damage that is cumulative. At some point it’ll become significant enough to cause symptoms if you play enough.” Instead it was deliberate instruction to hit with our heads- I recall getting my ass chewed (I was an offensive/defensive lineman) because the front of my helmet above my facemask wasn’t chewed up enough, which meant I wasn’t hitting with my head the “right” way. Ultimately I was willing to take the risks I knew about, but I’m not so sure I’d have risked CTE knowing what we know in 2017. Personally, I think that rule changes, and more importantly equipment changes could change the sport into something more akin to rugby, but keep most of the important parts of the sport. Essentially eliminating the ability to actually use one’s head as a weapon, and getting rid of face masks would go a long way toward preventing most head impacts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-concussions-the-next-big-thing/628696.md?page=5)