# Football players should express no opinion on same-sex marriage? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 7, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939 "2012-09-07T01:40:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/101 "2012-09-08T02:39:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not seeing the comparison to John Rocker. The particularly offensive part of the Ayanbadejo story is that an elected official pressured the owner of the Ravens to stop a player from exercising his right to weigh in on a political issue. If a New York legislator had told the owners of the Braves to shut Rocker up, that would have been similar. Not surprisingly, that didn’t happen. I doubt he did this consciously, but I suspect a major reason Burns went after Ayanbadejo is the fact that public support is going against his regressive views on same-sex marriage. Maryland is moving toward legalizing it, after all. I’m a little confused about the process but I think they’ll be voting on it in November. Rocker was condemned from all sides because he said something offensive about practically everybody and made a total ass of himself, so legislators probably didn’t feel they needed to put their thumbs on the scale. Agreed. Moreover, it’s been awhile since Rocker’s comments and I don’t feel like looking them up, but IIRC he made some extremely racist comments about foreigners and unless Atlanta is dramatically different from most MLB teams, I suspect that it has significant number of Latin American ballplayers who wouldn’t have been terribly happy about them and taken them as a personal insult. I’ve lived in the US since I was two and I know that I took it as such. Well, when you say something that’s going to cause massive dissension on your team there will be consequences. To give a comparable example, way back in the early 1960s, Alvin Dark, the then manager of the San Francisco Giants was fired after he claimed that blacks and Latinos lacked the leadership qualities necessary to become a manager and twenty years later, Al Campanis and Jimmy “the Greek” Snyder were fired from their respective jobs for making similarly racist comments(though Snyder’s comments weren’t explicitly negative). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/102 "2012-09-08T04:29:12Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > You ignored the question because your claim is wrong. And what claim would that be, pray tell? > [@](#): > > You have no cite to show that the 1st applies to private parties. Since that is irrelevant to what I’m asking you, and is a tautology, I don’t need one. > [@](#): > > I will not fall for your strawman. It’s your strawman that’s at issue. I take it you are then declining to defend it? > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > IIRC he made some extremely racist comments about foreigners He did a good bit more than that. He insulted foreigners, speakers of languages other than English, people with fashion sense different from his, single parents, and homosexuals, New Yorkers as a whole, and perhaps more than that: > [@](#): > > It’s the most hectic, nerve-racking city. Imagine having to take the 7 Train to the ballpark looking like you’re riding through Beirut next to some kid with purple hair, next to some queer with AIDS, right next to some dude who just got out of jail for the fourth time, right next to some 20-year-old mom with four kids. It’s depressing… The biggest thing I don’t like about New York are the foreigners. You can walk an entire block in Times Square and not hear anybody speaking English. Asians and Koreans and Vietnamese and Indians and Russians and Spanish people and everything up there. How the hell did they get in this country? Somewhat unsurprisingly, he’s now a right-wing political commentator. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/103 "2012-09-08T05:48:28Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And what claim would that be, pray tell? > > Since that is irrelevant to what I’m asking you, and is a tautology, I don’t need one. > > It’s your strawman that’s at issue. I take it you are then declining to defend it? When people claim to have the “freedom of speech” what the heck are they talking about then? Lets go back to your post: > [@Acsenray](#): > > > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > > > Being an ass to an employee != political speech. > > This isn’t a doctrine in free speech jurisprudence. Now lets go back a page: > [@Acsenray](#): > > In fact, the NFL was found to have maintained an illegal monopoly in the [USFL lawsuit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USFL#USFL_v._NFL_lawsuit). > > So, you’re comfortable with the idea that if everyone’s boss decides to quash controversial political speech, that only unemployed or self-employed people would get to speak publicly on controversial political issues? > > I’m not sure what exactly the guiding principle should be here. Do we want to give employers the freedom to prohibit employees from extolling the virtues of the KKK? If so, do they also have the freedom to prohibit employees from speaking out in support of desegregation? It was related and it is not a straw man. it is a basic concept **Private individuals and organizations are not beholden to the 1st amendment** Is it the right thing to do, to fire people for speaking their beliefs, no not in my opinion but there is NO legal prohibition for anyone taking an action against you for exercising your freedom of speech rights. The man who was fired after the drive through video had NO involvement with the government, there is no legal reason to invoke any freedom of speech rights. Get that, freedom of speech is not invoked, involved or relevant to the story. If you claim otherwise as you seem to in this thread you need to provide a cite. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/104 "2012-09-08T14:07:27Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Get that, freedom of speech is not invoked, involved or relevant to the story. It absolutely is relevant. The basic premise of this thread is to what extent a private employer can quash the political speech of its employees. Thus, it is assumed that we are considering changing the boundaries of the concept of free speech. You don’t need a cite for the proposition of a debate. Now, in the context of that discussion, you said that “Being an ass to an employee != political speech.” My comments to you have been restricted to this statement by itself. Why did you say it? Do you actually believe it’s true? Do you think it should be a consideration in determining whether an employer should be restricted from taking action against an employee’s public expression? Or what? Why do you resist explaining yourself? I tell you what I think: Being an ass to an employee very well might be political speech and in the case of the Chik-Fil-A guy, I believe it was political speech. Now do you have any response to that? ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/105 "2012-09-08T15:01:22Z")
Chris Kluwe of the Minnesota Vikings would like to say a few words to State Delegate Burns: > [@Chris Kluwe](#): > > Dear Emmett C. Burns, Jr., > > I find it inconceivable that you are an elected official of the United States government. Your vitriolic hatred and bigotry make me ashamed and disgusted to think that you are in any way responsible for shaping policy at any level. > > \ > > I can assure you that gay people getting married will have zero effect on your life. They won’t come into your house and steal your children. They won’t magically turn you into a lustful cockmonster. They won’t even overthrow the government in an orgy of hedonistic debauchery because all of a sudden they have the same legal rights as the other 90 percent of our population, rights like Social Security benefits, childcare tax credits, family and medical leave to take care of loved ones, and COBRA health care for spouses and children. You know what having these rights will make gay Americans? Full-fledged citizens, just like everyone else, with the freedom to pursue happiness and all that that entails. Do the civil-rights struggles of the past 200 years mean absolutely nothing to you? > **[An Open Letter To Emmett Burns](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/an-open-letter-to-emmett-burns_b_1866216?utm_hp_ref=sports%2Csports&ir=Sports)** > > I find it inconceivable that you are an elected official of the United States government. Your vitriolic hatred and bigotry make me ashamed and disgusted to think that you are in any way responsible for shaping policy at any level. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/106 "2012-09-08T15:21:07Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I would amend that to “male”. And not while they were still active, no. Several have come out after retirement (I was roughly 6 inches away from one of them in a hotel pool once). Six inches ? Hmm ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/107 "2012-09-08T15:33:25Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Six inches ? Hmm Sadly, no. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/108 "2012-09-08T18:02:38Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It absolutely is relevant. The basic premise of this thread is to what extent a private employer can quash the political speech of its employees. Thus, it is assumed that we are considering changing the boundaries of the concept of free speech. You don’t need a cite for the proposition of a debate. > > Now, in the context of that discussion, you said that “Being an ass to an employee != political speech.” > > My comments to you have been restricted to this statement by itself. Why did you say it? Do you actually believe it’s true? Do you think it should be a consideration in determining whether an employer should be restricted from taking action against an employee’s public expression? Or what? Why do you resist explaining yourself? > > I tell you what I think: Being an ass to an employee very well might be political speech and in the case of the Chik-Fil-A guy, I believe it was political speech. Now do you have any response to that? Please explain your logic how the Chik-Fil-A guy’s case invokes any free speech protection at all, I want lawful invocations of protections not speculations. You may want to go back and read the OP. > [@](#): > > I’m surprised for a number of reasons by this. I expect there won’t be much debate here about the ultimate issue of support for marriage equality. But I thought the might be at least some good discussion here about the legislator’s demand. Also note this is not IMHO, if you want to make an argument that employers should be forced to accept employee speech go ahead, just don’t infer the right exists at all today. But as far as my claim of being rude to a cashier is not protected from private party repercussions due to it being “political speech” is still true. The legislator’s demand is a HUGE issue, as he was acting in the role as a government official demanding the gagging of an employee from a private enterprise. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/109 "2012-09-08T18:25:54Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Please explain your logic how the Chik-Fil-A guy’s case invokes any free speech protection at all, I want lawful invocations of protections not speculations. > > Also note this is not IMHO, if you want to make an argument that employers should be forced to accept employee speech go ahead, just don’t infer the right exists at all today. Show me where someone “inferred” such a thing. > [@](#): > > But as far as my claim of being rude to a cashier is not protected from private party repercussions due to it being “political speech” is still true. No, this was not your statement. Your statement was “Being an ass to an employee != political speech.” My point is that “Being an ass to an employee _sometimes is_ political speech.” Do you agree or not? Why? For the purposes of this question, the issue of private or governmental action is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/110 "2012-09-08T18:49:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Show me where someone “inferred” such a thing. > > No, this was not your statement. Your statement was “Being an ass to an employee != political speech.” My point is that “Being an ass to an employee _sometimes is_ political speech.” Do you agree or not? Why? For the purposes of this question, the issue of private or governmental action is irrelevant. As for the the context of that statement, no I do not agree. Three was NOTHING at all in the drive through berating that would have invoked the freedom of speech as it relates to his firing. Had he been a public employee or had a legislator/government official demanded, worse had a legislator demanded it on official letterhead and his employer had acted due to that letter yes. Otherwise it would require a much longer thread than was offered here. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/111 "2012-09-08T18:53:42Z")
None of that responds to the question I asked. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/112 "2012-09-08T18:55:18Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > None of that responds to the question I asked. Yes, because you are trying to lead me into a strawman while ignoring my point which I have clarified multiple times. But have the last word. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/113 "2012-09-08T19:01:08Z")
What’s this strawman you are afraid of? I’m telling you is that I reject your assertion that “Being an ass to an employee != political speech” and in particular I am asking you to support your assertion that the Chik-Fil-A guy was not engaging in political speech, because. (1) There is nothing in free speech jurisprudence that makes such a distinction between “being an ass to an employee” and “political speech” (2) He _was_ engaging in political speech. Disagreeing with you and asking you to support your assertion is not a strawman. Everything else you’re saying is irrelevant to this question. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/114 "2012-09-13T04:34:04Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > The draft, the salary cap, the media sharing – oh, the NFL has huge exemptions. MLB just has the oldest and most famous exemption. > [@Bricker](#): > > I know this is completely off topic, but how are those anti-trust exemptions? I am not asking to suggest they aren’t, just to get some detail. Sorry – haven’t checked back on this in awhile. Only the way they handle broadcasting is under a true exemption, granted by the Sports Broadcasting Act of 1961. The draft and the cap are contractual agreements, more along the lines of “things the NFLPA lets the NFL get away with.” Absent a collective bargaining agreement or a certified union (as happens occasionally), these probably would be violations, and the NFLPA certainly has used anti-trust suits (and threats of anti-trust suits) far more successfully than it has the usual union tactics. MLB’s immunity is based on an old Supreme Court decision; it’s been shot full of holes since then, and has barely managed to stay afloat. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/115 "2012-09-13T07:12:20Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Yes, because you are trying to lead me into a strawman while ignoring my point which I have clarified multiple times. > > But have the last word. No, you haven’t. Ascenray has proven that a statement you made is false. Being an asshole can indeed equal free speech. You refuse to admit this, so he is continuing on. Why you wouldn’t admit you made a mistake, instead of moving the goalposts, I don’t know. If you believe what you’ve written actually defends against his claim, it is no wonder that this board doesn’t do formal debates. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/116 "2012-09-13T15:52:52Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Uh … Wow. > > For those who want to know before clicking – Minnesota punter Chris Kluwe has written a public letter to Burns tearing him a new one in rather colorful language. Dude writes like a Doper. _Beautiful_ rant. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/117 "2012-09-13T16:06:41Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No, you haven’t. Ascenray has proven that a statement you made is false. Being an asshole can indeed equal free speech. You refuse to admit this, so he is continuing on. Why you wouldn’t admit you made a mistake, instead of moving the goalposts, I don’t know. > > If you believe what you’ve written actually defends against his claim, it is no wonder that this board doesn’t do formal debates. I am not moving the goalposts, the speech was political in nature but if you want to claim that other private individuals and organizations are restricted by the 1st amendment it is you who needs to provide a cite vs just hand-waving it away. Just as you won’t invoke the third amendment because your sister lets your brother-in law sleep on your couch. Once again “freedom of speech” is a legal concept, one that was NOT involved in the drive-through incident as NONE of the actors were restricted by the law governing the right. If you claim otherwise give a cite. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/118 "2012-09-13T16:17:05Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > No, you haven’t. Ascenray has proven that a statement you made is false. Being an asshole can indeed equal free speech. You refuse to admit this, so he is continuing on. Why you wouldn’t admit you made a mistake, instead of moving the goalposts, I don’t know. > > If you believe what you’ve written actually defends against his claim, it is no wonder that this board doesn’t do formal debates. It is also quite hilarious that your rant is 100% ad hominem as you opine about the lack of formal debates on this board 🙂 Thanks, I needed a good laugh today. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/119 "2012-09-13T16:48:59Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Dude writes like a Doper. _Beautiful_ rant. Most Dopers can only dream of ranting like that. Even once. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939/120 "2012-09-14T00:31:39Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > if you want to claim that other private individuals and organizations are restricted by the 1st amendment it is you who needs to provide a cite vs just hand-waving it away. No one is claiming this. The fact that you keep repeating a rebuttal to a claim no one has made indicates that you should go re-read the thread. As **Acsenray** said, part of the subject of this debate is whether or not employers should be able to stifle political speech. Again, _no one_ is claiming that the 1st Amendment applies to employers. When someone says that they think employers shouldn’t be able to fire people for political speech, they’re not making a claim about current law that might protect such speech. They’re making a claim about the way they want things to be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-players-should-express-no-opinion-on-same-sex-marriage/633939.md?page=7)