Football rules question

[whatami]

@aktep

Yes theoretically possible, and exactly the improbable event I was imagining in post #11.

But-- while the NCAA rules are very clear that this would be a 1-point safety, and the score then 6-1 (assuming it’s the first TD in the game), the NFL rules are not so clear.

The rule says “(c) if there is no kick and the Try results in what would ordinarily be a safety by the defense, one point is awarded to the offensive team.”

There is no analogous rule for “safety by the offense”. “If a touchdown is not scored, the Try is over at the end of the play”, would imply no points are awarded and the Try just ends.

The only example for a safety on the Try in the NFL rulebook is AR11.3 I cited above.

I’ve been told that there is no way the defense can score on the Try in the NFL.

To clarify a little bit as I understand my NFL rulebook (2005, but I believe the rules are still the same) the defense can never score on a PAT attempt. EVER. The team that scored a TD can either attempt a kick (for 1 point) attempt a touchdown (for 2 points), or run a play which would normally result in a safety (have the holder pick up the ball and run to the other endzone and out of bounds) for 1 point. The rulebook is very clear that no points can be scored by the defense on a PAT. (I’m traveling right now, so I can quote the exact rule).

I’m not sure on the NCAA rules, but I think that the maximum points that can be scored on a PAT attempt be the defense is 2 points.

[EllisDee]

@whatami

or run a play which would normally result in a safety (have the holder pick up the ball and run to the other endzone and out of bounds) for 1 point.

That’s not how safeties work. The scenario you describe would award a safety to the defense, which I agree isn’t allowed to score. (And you don’t have to run it; you could just turn around and throw it 90 yards if you had the arm strength.)

The safety has to be given up by the defense in order for the offense to get a point out of it. Since the try ends as soon as the defense gets possession, the only way it could happen is for the ball to be fumbled, and while it’s lying on the ground a defensive player kicks it backwards through the endzone he is defending. That’s a safety against the defense, which apparently would be scored as 1 point for the offense.

[Saint_Cad]

@jsc1953

Note also that the score would be 6-1. It’s impossible for the score (south of the Canadian border) to ever be 1-0.

Nope! By rule, a forfit in the NFL is scored 1-0.

[whatami]

@Ellis Dee

That’s not how safeties work. The scenario you describe would award a safety to the defense, which I agree isn’t allowed to score. (And you don’t have to run it; you could just turn around and throw it 90 yards if you had the arm strength.)

The safety has to be given up by the defense in order for the offense to get a point out of it. Since the try ends as soon as the defense gets possession, the only way it could happen is for the ball to be fumbled, and while it’s lying on the ground a defensive player kicks it backwards through the endzone he is defending. That’s a safety against the defense, which apparently would be scored as 1 point for the offense.

I’ll post the rule tommorow or Thurs. when I get home (it’s up in the air at this point).

I was just looking at it this week while reviewing another rule. It states something like, (in addition to the other ways you can score a PAT (TD or Kick))

Or run a play which would normally result in a safety to the defense is worth one point

@SaintCad

Nope! By rule, a forfit in the NFL is scored 1-0.

Again, I don’t have the book with me, but it specifically states that a forfeit is scored as 2-0.

I did find some information in the NFL Rules Digest

• Forfeit. The Commissioner, (except in cases of disciplinary action; see last section on “Removing Team from Field”), League President, and their representatives, including referees, are not authorized unilaterally to declare forfeits. A forfeit occurs only when a game is not played because of the failure or refusal of one team to participate. In that event, the other team, if ready and willing to play, is the winner by a score of 2-0.

[Saint_Cad]

@whatami

Again, I don’t have the book with me, but it specifically states that a forfeit is scored as 2-0.

I did find some information in the NFL Rules Digest

My error. It’s NCAA football where a forfeit can be 1-0.

[BobT]

The one-point safety in American football can only come on an extra point attempt. So any team that gets one has already scored six points.

[BobT]

@Freddy the Pig

There was another wrinkle in the Tennessee-Kentucky game, however, because the PAT in question took place during the third overtime, when the rules require the offense to go for two.

The rule says, Here we would have had a situation where the offense attempted a two-point try, but ended up with a one-point try anyway. Would the point have counted?

The one point would have counted. It really doesn’t make that much of a difference. In the bottom “half” of the OT period, the other team would have to go for two after a TD anyway.

[EllisDee]

@whatami

I’ll post the rule tommorow or Thurs. when I get home (it’s up in the air at this point).

It was already posted in post #7. My post (#22) merely reframes the rule-speak in conversational English.

[BobT]

@Ellis Dee

That’s not how safeties work. The scenario you describe would award a safety to the defense, which I agree isn’t allowed to score. (And you don’t have to run it; you could just turn around and throw it 90 yards if you had the arm strength.)

The safety has to be given up by the defense in order for the offense to get a point out of it. Since the try ends as soon as the defense gets possession, the only way it could happen is for the ball to be fumbled, and while it’s lying on the ground a defensive player kicks it backwards through the endzone he is defending. That’s a safety against the defense, which apparently would be scored as 1 point for the offense.

You have the rule right. A safety on a PAT in the NFL can only occur if the defense causes the ball to become dead in its own end zone. And in the NFL, this would most likely happen if on a fumble, the defense batted the ball back through its own end zone somehow.

For example, San Diego trails New England by 8 points. The Chargers score a TD to bring themselves to within two. The Chargers go for two. LaDanian Tomlinson runs left, but loses his grip on the ball and it falls to the ground. Tomlinson wants to pick it up, but Junior Seau of the Pats slaps the ball back through the end zone. Since the defense provided the impetus that made the ball dead in its end zone, it’s a safety and it’s one point for the offense.

If the offense on a try, ran backwards 98 yards through it its own end zone, it would just be ruled “unsuccessful try.”

[aktep]

@Freddy the Pig

The rule says, Here we would have had a situation where the offense attempted a two-point try, but ended up with a one-point try anyway. Would the point have counted?

Sloppy wording in the NCAA rule book rears its head again. It’s generally understood that “one-point try” means “try by scrimmage kick”

[Freddy_the_Pig]

@BobT

The one point would have counted. It really doesn’t make that much of a difference. In the bottom “half” of the OT period, the other team would have to go for two after a TD anyway.

Yeah, but if they missed, then they would lose, as opposed to going to a fourth overtime.

It would have been really strange to score one when you’re not allowed to go for one. I was kind of pissed when the ball squirted back over the goal line.