# Football (soccer) hypothetical: Europe v. S. America **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 21, 2015, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981 "2015-12-21T05:47:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/21 "2015-12-21T23:30:41Z")
Also, every other team has copied the Pats and Spurs. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/22 "2015-12-21T23:30:59Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > So… that tightly contested WC Final between Germany and Argentina doesn’t matter because… ? > > Also, did you miss James Rodriguez’s performance? Or were you not aware that Colombia resides in South America? Germany won, right? You do understand sports psychology? After the massive and unexpected win against Brazil they were due for a let down. Yet they won. In South America. The first Euro team to win a World Cup there. Rodriguez was great. An excellent player. Maybe the next CR7 or Messi…if he gets a chance to play. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/23 "2015-12-21T23:34:01Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > You do realize that that the NFL and NBA have salary caps, right? While no European soccer leagues have them. > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Also, every other team has copied the Pats and Spurs. They have Financial Fair Play rules which limit spending. What I was trying to say in response to ISiddiqui was that other teams try to copy success but cant because of factors like they dont have the quality players, money or tactical misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/24 "2015-12-21T23:35:48Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Germany won, right? You do understand sports psychology? After the massive and unexpected win against Brazil they were due for a let down. Yet they won. In South America. The first Euro team to win a World Cup there. Does this “due for a letdown” theory have any citations or are you just making it up? I mean in the College Football playoffs last year, Ohio State had a massive and unexpected win over Alabama… that must mean they were ‘due for a letdown’ right? Is that how it works? And since they won… they what… asserted that the Big 10 was the dominant conference over everyone else? Because they bucked the “letdown” theory? Sorry… don’t buy it one bit. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/25 "2015-12-21T23:36:30Z")
Also, Barca was breaking transfer rules by signing international under 18s…maybe that is one reason for their success. Im not sure if the Messi transfer was legal at the time. Maybe it was. But they were banned from transfers for a year. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/26 "2015-12-21T23:37:13Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > They have Financial Fair Play rules which limit spending. What I was trying to say in response to ISiddiqui was that other teams try to copy success but cant because of factors like they dont have the quality players, money or tactical misunderstanding. Right. Players like, e.g., Messi, Suarez and Neymar. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/27 "2015-12-21T23:37:18Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > They have Financial Fair Play rules which limit spending. What I was trying to say in response to ISiddiqui was that other teams try to copy success but cant because of factors like they dont have the quality players, money or tactical misunderstanding. Wow! FFP is toothless compared to a salary cap. If you think they are even close, that is utterly laughable. Your argument against Messi is that his MFs, Xavi and Ineista were so amazing and wonderful that no other team could ever hope to have as great a MF tandem, is that it? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/28 "2015-12-21T23:37:57Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Does this “due for a letdown” theory have any citations or are you just making it up? I mean in the College Football playoffs last year, Ohio State had a massive and unexpected win over Alabama… that must mean they were ‘due for a letdown’ right? Is that how it works? And since they won… they what… asserted that the Big 10 was the dominant conference over everyone else? Because they bucked the “letdown” theory? > > Sorry… don’t buy it one bit. Fair enough…but they won. In South America. No Euro team had won a WC there and no SA team has won one in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/29 "2015-12-21T23:39:27Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Wow! FFP is toothless compared to a salary cap. If you think they are even close, that is utterly laughable. > > Your argument against Messi is that his MFs, Xavi and Ineista were so amazing and wonderful that no other team could ever hope to have as great a MF tandem, is that it? Its one point. And no team has. Wait…why did Spain finally have success in the World Cup??? OMG…I cant imagine. Could it have been their midfield dominance? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/30 "2015-12-21T23:41:45Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Fair enough…but they won. In South America. No Euro team had won a WC there and no SA team has won one in Europe. That is completely incorrect as Brazil has won a WC in Europe (1958). Why should we listen to you when you get even this basic facts incorrect? In addition, one game between two national team sides does not settle the argument for one continent over another. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/31 "2015-12-21T23:43:25Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > That is completely incorrect as Brazil has won a WC in Europe (1958). Why should we listen to you when you get even this basic facts incorrect? > > In addition, one game between two national team sides does not settle the argument for one continent over another. Then dont listen…no one is forcing you. And 1958 has so much relevence for modern football. And that would be 3 national sides…looks like neither of us can get his basic facts right. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/32 "2015-12-21T23:44:50Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Its one point. And no team has. Wait…why did Spain finally have success in the World Cup??? OMG…I cant imagine. Could it have been their midfield dominance? When did I point out that Xavi and Iniesta weren’t good MFs? And wasn’t Spain playing the same tiki-taka system that Barca was? So why wasn’t David Villa considered the best player in the world if he was playing ahead of them? Is setting up these strawmen getting tired for you? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/33 "2015-12-21T23:47:27Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Then dont listen…no one is forcing you. And 1958 has so much relevence for modern football. > > And that would be 3 national sides…looks like neither of us can get his basic facts right. So… you were wrong. You can admit it. I just suggested one, not making an exhaustive list. You were wrong. As you are wrong on Messi. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/34 "2015-12-21T23:49:46Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > When did I point out that Xavi and Iniesta weren’t good MFs? And wasn’t Spain playing the same tiki-taka system that Barca was? So why wasn’t David Villa considered the best player in the world if he was playing ahead of them? > > Is setting up these strawmen getting tired for you? And those matches Spain played without a striker? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/35 "2015-12-21T23:52:17Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > So… you were wrong. You can admit it. > > I just suggested one, not making an exhaustive list. > > You were wrong. As you are wrong on Messi. We were both wrong. Messi is to CR7 as Tim Duncan was to Shaq; one was a great player in a great system while the other was a physical beast with more talent. Doesnt mean they werent both great. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/36 "2015-12-21T23:53:42Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > And those matches Spain played without a striker? What, Villa played as MF? Must have missed that in the 2010 WC. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/37 "2015-12-21T23:54:58Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Messi is to CR7 as Tim Duncan was to Shaq; one was a great player in a great system while the other was a physical beast with more talent. Doesnt mean they werent both great. So Guardiola and Enrique run the same system? That’s the first I’ve heard of this. Do you believe Barca still play tiki-taka? Or is it… another system? ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/38 "2015-12-22T14:37:44Z")
The notion that Lionel Messi is somehow a product of his system is so obviously wrong to anyone that has actually watched him play that I’m not sure what other discussion is needed on that point. Barca don’t even play “the system” any more. The question in the OP is interesting. I think right now, given a month or so to train, that I would put my money on the SA team. The attacking talent is just off the charts, and I think the defense _might_ be able to hold on better than Brazil did. Just a guess though - the center backs aren’t quite as solid, IMO, and the full backs are more attacking than you’d like. Brazil v. Germany showed what happens when you try to play with a back two. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981/39 "2015-12-22T21:07:10Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > The notion that Lionel Messi is somehow a product of his system is so obviously wrong to anyone that has actually watched him play that I’m not sure what other discussion is needed on that point. Of course he is a product of his system, you cannot ignore the circumstances surrounding him that helped him to break so many records. Of course what people seem to forget is that the existence of that system doesn’t mean he isn’t perhaps the greatest of all time. Think of the greatest players of all time. Many people will have their favourites but the same names will crop up over and over, because they were in fact some of the greatest ever. Look at that list, and then consider how amazing it is that 3 of the greatest players ever to play football were in the same team! Xavi, Iniesta and Messi all on the field at the same time! Its like having Beckenbauer, Cruyff and Pele together, or Matthaus and Best supporting Maradona, its amazing and there is no way they would not make each other better and more successful. And thats not even counting players like Henry, Ibrahimovic, Busquets, Eto and Villa who all can claim to be among the best of the best themselves, Busquets especially. Messi was elevated by playing in front of Xavi and Iniesta, there is simply no way to ignore that fact. Still doesn’t mean he isn’t one of the two greatest players ever though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/football-soccer-hypothetical-europe-v-s-america/740981.md?page=1)