# For Better or For Worse 8/11 & 8/12 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 12, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731 "2005-08-12T15:00:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/41 "2005-08-13T00:46:59Z")
> [@neofishboy](#): > > Gunned down by the Germans?!? You heartless bastard! :eek: Sure, why not? No dead bodies of course, just a peaceful meadow. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/42 "2005-08-13T02:58:47Z")
> [@Q.N. Jones](#): > > I’m not saying [Liz is] a drooling idiot, but she is being extraordinarily slow to catch on. What frustrates me is that after she split up with Eric, the guy who cheated on her, she talked pretty big about how she’d learned not to be so trusting, and from now on she was going to “play hard to hurt”. But all that came to was her cold-shouldering Warren, the helicopter pilot, right out of the picture. Other than that, she’s still the same pushover she always was. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/43 "2005-08-13T04:39:44Z")
> [@Agrippina](#): > > I wouldn’t be surprised if Johnston turned to a new storyline tomorrow. Everytime a storyline gets real good she abandons it for something else. For instance, when Ellie’s employee was stealing from the toy shop. Just when the girl was confronted, Johnston went somewhere else. It took a few months before she went back to the storyline, in which the girl is fired and she decides to sue Ellie. And then it was off somewhere else again and I don’t remember if Johnston ever resolved the “Ellie vs. what-her-name” plotline. Just some vague reference to how the girl was working somewhere else. Have you met the attorney Kortney hired? It’s Chuck Cunningham. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/44 "2005-08-13T04:48:47Z")
8/13: It’s like I said, and like **qn\_jones** has been saying: Liz does not learn. Also, re: the apology yesterday. Is Lynn living in the 19th century? This is not about Liz’s honor; she was in physical danger. An apology don’t mean sh!t. This is a matter for the cops. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/45 "2005-08-13T05:19:58Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > I’ve been thinking that Elizabeth isn’t the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree. She should have reported Howard long since for harassment and didn’t. Easy for you to say. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/46 "2005-08-13T08:58:57Z")
> [@Q.N. Jones](#): > > I will confess that my sisters Libby (“Liz with smarts”) and Mary (“April”) both say I am way too quick to call people dumb. But then, I am the Mike of the family, and thus a Genius Stud(ette). 😃 So you keep making the same mistake over and over? Since you’re so smart, one would think you’d learn. . . ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/47 "2005-08-13T09:16:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Easy for you to say. What’s that supposed to mean? ---
**Author:** ![Q.N.Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3da27b/32.png) [@Q.N.Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.N.Jones)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/48 "2005-08-13T09:17:30Z")
> [@Jeff Lichtman](#): > > So you keep making the same mistake over and over? Since you’re so smart, one would think you’d learn. . . It’s hardly the same thing. We’re talking off-the-cuff remarks made to my sisters. The only consequence is having my sisters laugh and say, “QN, you need to get a different adjective.” Oh God, you’re right! It’s _exactly_ the same thing that Liz is doing!!! :rolleyes: Are you dumb? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Carm6773](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/2bfe46/32.png) [@Carm6773](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carm6773)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/49 "2005-08-13T10:58:29Z")
> [@Agrippina](#): > > I wouldn’t be surprised if Johnston turned to a new storyline tomorrow. Everytime a storyline gets real good she abandons it for something else. Another example: The April/Gerald thing at the dance. I thought “Aw, how cute, a summer romance for her!” and then she goes to spend the summer with her Aunt and Uncle, and Gerald is hardly mentioned. ARGH! At least Liz caught them behind the school before things moved TOO far. Although, a teen pregnancy storyline would have been interesting. I’m with a lot of you: there better be some punishment for El Creepo. ---
**Author:** ![Q.N.Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3da27b/32.png) [@Q.N.Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.N.Jones)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/50 "2005-08-13T11:30:42Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Easy for you to say. Yes, sometimes it is hard to decide to make waves at work, or to realize you really should call the cops. But Liz’s problems in those areas aren’t as difficult as they are for the average woman. Her boss is a very old family friend who would be sympathetic–especially since, as a gay man, he has probably been harassed himself at times. She lives with her parents (not alone), so she has some people around for support. Her father knows and is urging her to call the police. Not only did Liz not report him to the police, or to their boss, but she continued to treat him like any other co-worker. There she was…alone in the office with the guy who has been following her home…and she was conversing with him. Pretending she didn’t know that he knew she knew he followed her home the night before. It’s surreal. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/51 "2005-08-13T12:23:46Z")
Today’s is posted at [the FBOFW](http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/forbetter/) website. Liz is talking to Anthony about Howard. They hug at the end. I think Anthony is going to try to talk Liz into filing charges and will back her up. Robin ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/52 "2005-08-13T13:31:24Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > Today’s is posted at [the FBOFW](http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/forbetter/) website. > > Liz is talking to Anthony about Howard. They hug at the end. I think Anthony is going to try to talk Liz into filing charges and will back her up. > > Robin > [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > WAG: Somehow, Anthony & Liz will end up in each others arms in a comforting way, and then Anthony’s bitch of a wife will show up. So far so good. Monday’s strip should be interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/53 "2005-08-13T17:51:33Z")
> [@Carm6773](#): > > Another example: The April/Gerald thing at the dance. I thought “Aw, how cute, a summer romance for her!” and then she goes to spend the summer with her Aunt and Uncle, and Gerald is hardly mentioned. ARGH! At least Liz caught them behind the school before things moved TOO far. Nitpick: They were inside the building, and Liz didn’t catch them. Becky interrupted, and they started talking about her (Becky) wanting to leave the band. Also, Robyn, you’re more optimistic than I. What I get from today’s strip is simply Anthony comforting Liz and telling her that the bad man is going to go away now. Scary things like pressing charges aren’t necessary; she just needs a pat on the back for having so much good inside her. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/54 "2005-08-13T19:27:00Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > What’s that supposed to mean? It means exactly what it sounds like. It’s very easy to sit back and imperiously tell women that they should take this precaution and that precaution and march over to the local constabulary every time a guy touches them inappropriately. It’s easy to shake one’s head and tut-tut and say women are “stupid” when they don’t press charges. It’s easy to forget that most of the time their complaints are brushed off or come to nothing or the cops just don’t have the time, or they’re accused of making waves and taking things too seriously. But when you learn pretty much all your life that you’re supposed to just try to avoid this sort of thing and not make waves, well, it’s not quite that easy. Fact is that most of the time this sort of thing happens, the cops won’t do anything, or if they do the courts won’t follow up, or your boss tells you to stop complaining, either outright or by just trying to defuse the situation. As to taking precautionary measures, it’s also not quite that easy to know which guy’s going to go from inappropriate words to actual assault when DOZENS AND DOZENS of men go as far as words and don’t quite cross the line. Lotta folks here need to walk a mile in someone else’s moccasins, methinks. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/55 "2005-08-13T19:59:49Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Scary things like pressing charges aren’t necessary; she just needs a pat on the back for having so much good inside her. I want Howard and Kortney to team up and work together to bedevil the Pattersons. Like Luthor and the Joker! ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/56 "2005-08-13T22:34:48Z")
\*Quote: Originally Posted by \*_Baker \*\* I’ve been thinking that Elizabeth isn’t the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree. She should have reported Howard long since for harassment and didn’t._ > [@RickJay](#): > > Easy for you to say. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > What’s that supposed to mean? > [@RickJay](#): > > It means exactly what it sounds like. It’s very easy to sit back and imperiously tell women that they should take this precaution and that precaution and march over to the local constabulary every time a guy touches them inappropriately. It’s easy to shake one’s head and tut-tut and say women are “stupid” when they don’t press charges. It’s easy to forget that most of the time their complaints are brushed off or come to nothing or the cops just don’t have the time, or they’re accused of making waves and taking things too seriously. > > But when you learn pretty much all your life that you’re supposed to just try to avoid this sort of thing and not make waves, well, it’s not quite that easy. Fact is that most of the time this sort of thing happens, the cops won’t do anything, or if they do the courts won’t follow up, or your boss tells you to stop complaining, either outright or by just trying to defuse the situation. > > As to taking precautionary measures, it’s also not quite that easy to know which guy’s going to go from inappropriate words to actual assault when DOZENS AND DOZENS of men go as far as words and don’t quite cross the line. > > Lotta folks here need to walk a mile in someone else’s moccasins, methinks. **RickJay** , I don’t know if you’re male or female, so my response is harder to craft. But before you wrote that last sentence of your response you may have wanted to stop and consider that many of us _have_ “walked a mile in other people’s moccasins.” And when I myself was lightly questionling Liz’s brain power I just might have been speaking from experience, as a person who has a spine and isn’t afraid to use it. It is foolish not to report the kind of harrassment Liz was getting. And yes, I truly believe that “every time a guy touches them inappropriately” it should be reported. If nothing else it will build up a documentation file when the perv kicks it up a notch, like Howard did. Liz, should she press charges, would have more backup than the unsupported word of family members. Creepos like Howard, if they aren’t bashed down, can get progressively worse in their behavior. Elizabeth is going to have a hard enough time learning to live with the fear Howard has just caused her, although seeing Anthony bashing him will help. Well, it would help someone like me anyway. And **RickJay**? The initial paragraph of your longer statement above tells me you think I must be male, what with the statements about “imperiously telling women” and all that. I’m female. ---
**Author:** ![CantUseMyRealName](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@CantUseMyRealName](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CantUseMyRealName)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2005, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/57 "2005-08-14T01:20:57Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Lotta folks here need to walk a mile in someone else’s moccasins, methinks. i walked in those moccasins and i agree with you rickjay. and for the record, i am certainly not lacking in the spine department. when i was in school in the late 1970’s, i got a job at a local bank. an older (mid 40’s) married man who was employed as some sort of branch messenger and head of the mailroom began making inappropriate comments to me. the first time he made a remark to me that made me uncomfortable, i mentioned it to the ladies in my department. they all asured me he was harmless and meant nothing by the remark. the second time he made a remark to me, i told him never to do that again and i reported him to the department supervisor. she assured me it would be handled. the very next day, he grabbed me on my way through the mailroom and began calling me filthy names for complaining. then he grabbed my ass. i screamed and pushed him away, and he threw his coffee at me while i ran away. guess who got the written warning? me i was told to stop complaining. i would have loved to have been able to get another job immediately, but there really weren’t many suitable job choices in that town for a student with a heavy class load and an apartment to pay for. so i sat my 19 year old self down and wrote a letter to the members of the board of directors of the bank, detailing what had happened. a few days later, i was called into the vice presidents office and told in no uncertain terms to knock it off. while i was there, he also ridiculed my letter. i was told that this man had a family to support, that no harm was really done, it was my word against his and he was a long-term employee, blah blah then i was told i was being transferred to a branch on the other side of town. one that was not within walking distance of my place. since i was too poor to afford a car, this was a real hardship. the real fun began when i got to my new branch. it seems the employees were told to “watch out” for me, and that i was a “troublemaker”. every move i made resulted in some sort of disciplinary action. for instance, it was usual and customary for the employees in my group to walk to the soda machine in the hall and have a soda at their desk in the afternoons. when i did the same, i was written up for having food at my desk and for exiting without advance permission. this went on for a couple of months. then one day while making small talk with another employee who had gotten to know me a bit and had realized that i was being treated shabbily decided to let me in on a secret. the invitations to the off-site branch christmas party had been passed out by word of mouth, with specific instructions that i was not to be invited. i have no idea what an action like that was meant to accomplish, other than to hurt my feelings, assuming that i found out about it. so off i went to the branch managers office to confront him face to face. i got the usual “there must be some mistake” and he then extended his “personal invitation” to me. it seems his personal policy was that it was ok to be shitty to me, but not to my face if he was forced to do his own dirty work. thankfully, i managed to land another job soon after. when i first reported this man’s behavior, i truly believed that my employer would be supportive of me. when they weren’t, i then believed that the board of directors would help me. i never imagined that any of these people would do everything in their power to make me want to quit, and that i would be treated so badly because i had stuck up for myself. maybe comic strip liz will be believed and supported by those around her. real life me learned the hard way that is not always the case, and that it isn’t always the creep who gets bashed down. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/58 "2005-08-14T03:35:23Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > And **RickJay**? The initial paragraph of your longer statement above tells me you think I must be male, Oh, not at all. Believe me, ya hear it from both sides. Males have no monopoly on the “If only sexual assault victims would listen to this advice” line. “If only she had a spine” is another. Granted, we’re talking about fictional characters, but it’s the same tired old tune. (Shrug) Just read the post after yours. It’s easy to point fingers at the victim for not responding the way you think is appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2005, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/59 "2005-08-14T07:19:21Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > It means exactly what it sounds like. It’s very easy to sit back and imperiously tell women that they should take this precaution and that precaution…Lotta folks here need to walk a mile in someone else’s moccasins, methinks. All right then. Just the way you said it, I thought you had something personal against **Baker**. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731/60 "2005-08-14T14:08:43Z")
Also, **RickJay** , bear in mind that what **Can’t** described happened in the late ‘70s. In those days, a sexual harassment video would have been something recorded off HBO that a female employee could have been forced to view against her will, at the cost of her job. Now it’s a caution that is shown to every new hire. Plus, this thread is discussing a situation where the victim works for a man who is not only one of her brother’s oldest friends, but also gay; I hardly think Lawrence would have reacted the same way as **Can’t** ’s employers. You’ll forgive **Baker** , and by extension, me, if we didn’t stop and consider a scenario that in today’s world is so illegal that **Can’t** could easily have sued and won ten years’ salary. And **Can’t** , that is horrible. HORRIBLE. My sympathies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-better-or-for-worse-8-11-8-12/316731.md?page=4)