# For bitching about language pedantry, other posters' language, and language in general **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2024, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135 "2024-06-16T22:40:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/301 "2024-06-24T19:23:57Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > The mean, median and mode for billions of people will all be non integers values and no one can be “exactly average” The mean is a calculated value, but if the data set is comprised entirely of integers, then the median must also be an integer since it’s derived directly from samples of the data set. Same for mode. In the case of bi-modal or multi-modal distributions, I believe the convention is to list the modes, not average them. > [@TroutMan](#): > > But were the people who misheard and propagated the changes academics? Because I have it on good authority that only academics can make meaningful changes to language. From what authority did you glean this amazing wisdom? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/302 "2024-06-24T19:25:54Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > > [@Pleonast](#): > > > > And also ignorant of social registers > > That is a phrase I was ignorant of anyway! I looked it up and if I understand correctly that’s basically the academic way to label what I was calling “playing to the room”, yes? “Code switching” is contained within it too? Yes, very similar. Speakers intuitively change their word selection, pronunciation, and other language features depending on who they’re talking to, what they’re talking about, and so on. It comes so naturally that it’s difficult for us to notice. Wiki page for more info: > **[Register (sociolinguistics)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_(sociolinguistics))** > > In sociolinguistics, a register is a variety of language used for a particular purpose or particular communicative situation. For example, when speaking officially or in a public setting, an English speaker may be more likely to follow prescriptive norms for formal usage than in a casual setting, for example, by pronouncing words ending in -ing with a velar nasal instead of an alveolar nasal (e.g., walking rather than walkin), choosing words that are considered more formal, such as father vs. dad... ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/303 "2024-06-24T19:38:41Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Just a small sampling of the language evolution this linguistic genius has bestowed upon the world, celebrated, I’m sure, by descriptivists all over: You get again show your ignorance of linguistics. Descriptivists no more celebrate word usage than physicists celebrate gravitation. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/304 "2024-06-24T19:42:24Z")
Never mind, misread it… ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/305 "2024-06-24T19:45:48Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Descriptivists no more celebrate word usage than physicists celebrate gravitation. More bullshit. I’m being hyperbolic again, of course, because I’m annoyed, and of course descriptivism is central to linguistics and at some level the foundation of language. But my point is that ardent descriptivists **defend** the poor use of language, and scrabble like rodents in the night looking for justifications for it. We’ve just seen examples of that, with different linguists putting forward different, competing, and possibly equally specious hypotheses. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/306 "2024-06-24T20:06:47Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > …ardent descriptivists **defend** the poor use of language, and scrabble like rodents in the night… You just aren’t doing yourself any favors in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/307 "2024-06-24T20:08:35Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > But my point is that ardent descriptivists **defend** the poor use of language, and scrabble like rodents in the night looking for justifications for it. We’ve just seen examples of that, with different linguists putting forward different, competing, and possibly equally specious hypotheses. An explanation is not a defense nor a justification. At worst, it’s a hypothesis. It’s unfortunate that you’re so incurious about how language works, that you see any description of a usage you don’t prefer as something to argue about. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2024, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/308 "2024-06-24T20:12:29Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > It’s unfortunate that you’re so incurious about how language works … Are you sure? > [@wolfpup](#): > > Very interesting analysis, thanks for posting … it’s an undeniably plausible explanation about how something that probably started as a mistake has endured even if its promulgators never quite understood why. Language is fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/309 "2024-06-25T13:52:39Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Two side comments stood out for me. One was the statement that “This makes a lot more sense than Pinker’s sarcastic teenage intonation theory.” I fully agree – it definitely does. I always thought Pinker was way off base on this. I have to admit, though I love that book, I’m not exactly sold on Pinker’s theory, either, and I rarely hear it with that type of sarcastic intonation. For me, it’s just an idiom. It doesn’t have to make any sense. Many idioms don’t. I like “I could care less” and purposely use it because it sounds punchier, more percussive to me, and it irks the pedants. But what I hear is a deleted/implied “[as if/like] I could care less” when it is said. I’m not saying that is the origin, or that’s my theory why people say it. People say it because other people say it – simple as that. But that’s what I hear. It’s the same when people say “I could give a shit.” ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/310 "2024-06-25T14:09:50Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > It’s the same when people say “I could give a shit.” Interestingly, I actually **do** hear “like I could give a shit” fairly often. I can’t ever remember hearing “like I could care less” but the other seems pretty common. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/311 "2024-06-25T14:39:13Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Interestingly, I actually **do** hear “like I could give a shit” fairly often. I can’t ever remember hearing “like I could care less” but the other seems pretty common. I’ve always assumed that “_I could care less_” was actually “_As if I could care less_” with the “As if” part implied. Just my 2 agorot. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/312 "2024-06-25T16:33:15Z")
I’ve also heard, “I could care.” ---
**Author:** ![jerseymule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jerseymule/32/3155_2.png) [@jerseymule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jerseymule)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/313 "2024-06-25T21:33:40Z")
Melanie’s song “Lay Down” is using the correct verb. “Lay it all down” is the lyric, not “(You) Lay Down.” ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2024, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/314 "2024-06-25T21:49:30Z")
LOL. Guess I didn’t listen that closely! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2024, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/315 "2024-06-27T11:19:53Z")
Whether “I could care less” is sarcasm (which is what I always assumed, before I heard of Pinker’s supposition) or is a slurring of words (something English is positively rife with) or is a mishearing is an interesting discussion. They’re competing hypotheses, and linguists are mad creative at coming up with tests for their hypotheses, and if someone were serious about the issue, they could probably explore it further. But calling the people who use the expression “morons” is just moronic. That takes it out of the realm of hypothesizing and into the realm of sneering. Wolfpup uses the word “descriptivist” with the same sort of arrogant sneer that astrologists use the word “astronomer.” It’d be charming, like a dog chasing its tail real fast, if it didn’t keep gumming up otherwise interesting threads. ---
**Author:** ![colinfred](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colinfred/32/21338_2.png) [@colinfred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colinfred)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2024, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/316 "2024-06-27T12:23:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Wolfpup uses the word “descriptivist” with the same sort of arrogant sneer that astrologists use the word “astronomer.” wolfpup is the astronomer, the “descriptivists” are the astrologers ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2024, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/317 "2024-06-27T12:34:35Z")
If I thought you had even the slightest clue what we were talking about, I might respond more fully. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2024, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/318 "2024-06-27T14:30:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But calling the people who use the expression “morons” is just moronic. That takes it out of the realm of hypothesizing and into the realm of sneering. It shouldn’t be necessary to say this so I assume you’re just being intentionally obtuse, but “moron” in this context is a Pit-appropriate term meant to highlight the belief that “could care less” originated as a mishearing rather than an intentional formulation, and was then repeated by those seemingly unaware of its semantic oddness. But I’m willing to accept the “negation by association” hypothesis from Language Log that was linked by @Q.Q.Switcheroo earlier to explain its endurance, although as I mentioned earlier the original “couldn’t care less” is much more prevalent. As for “sneering”, that’s delightfully ironic coming from someone who on this board is a consummate master of the art. You might, for instance, refer to the post immediately above this one for a fine example. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2024, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/319 "2024-06-27T15:07:44Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > As for “sneering”, that’s delightfully ironic coming from someone who on this board is a consummate master of the art. You might, for instance, refer to the post immediately above this one for a fine example Oh, I am glad to sneer in the pit. I just don’t do it from a position of superstitious ignorance like you do. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2024, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/320 "2024-06-27T15:18:30Z")
This is the literal opposite of the truth. Astronomers study the stars, make hypotheses, revise them when they are wrong. Astrologers make up a bunch of correlations between stars and personalities and act as if they are laws of nature. Linguists study and describe how language evolves and humans use it. Perscriptivists make up a bunch of rules and act as if they are laws of nature. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135.md?page=17)