# For bitching about language pedantry, other posters' language, and language in general **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2024, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135 "2024-06-16T22:40:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/61 "2024-06-18T07:17:14Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Those who _don’t_ abandon them will end up being the ones in charge. Somewhere Eric Blair and a whole bunch of lawyers are trying very hard to not piss themselves. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/62 "2024-06-18T07:22:59Z")
> [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/2892): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > That’s why we have systematic rules of grammar describing how parts of speech are put together, and rules of semantics that define the meaning of what we utter. Without that guidance, language becomes chaos. > > And that’s why no humans successfully communicated before these “rules” were codified… But communicated what, exactly? Has any important information that benefited the human species and advanced our knowledge and well-being ever been communicated by grunts, gestures, and facial expressions? Well, at least since the discovery of fire? ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/63 "2024-06-18T07:29:43Z")
Ummm…I get by with ASL and a great bitch face reasonably well, most days. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/64 "2024-06-18T07:44:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Is this a serious question? Of course they communicated. Could French-speaking medieval commoners from Normandy communicate with French-speaking medieval commoners from Provence? I don’t think they could - I don’t think their dialects were mutually intelligible. I do know, however, that the nobility from Normandy and Provence could communicate with each other. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Cite? Where’s the charter of the _Académie Assyria_ or the Egyptian Grammarian Institute’s minutes? Well, take Latin for instance: > **[Classical Latin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Latin)** > > Classical Latin is the form of Literary Latin recognized as a literary standard by writers of the late Roman Republic and early Roman Empire. It formed parallel to Vulgar Latin around 75 BC out of Old Latin, and developed by the 3rd century AD into Late Latin. In some later periods, the former was regarded as good or proper Latin; the latter as debased, degenerate, or corrupted. The word Latin is now understood by default to mean "Classical Latin"; for example, modern Latin textbooks almost exc... > [Cicero](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicero) and his contemporaries of the late republic referred to the Latin language, in contrast to other languages such as Greek, as _lingua latina_ or _sermo latinus_. They distinguished the common [vernacular](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernacular), however, as Vulgar Latin (_sermo vulgaris_ and _sermo vulgi_), in contrast to the higher [register](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_(sociolinguistics)) that they called _latinitas_, sometimes translated as “Latinity”.[[note 1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Latin#cite_note-1) _Latinitas_ was also called _sermo familiaris_ (“speech of the good families”), _sermo urbanus_ (“speech of the city”), and in rare cases _sermo nobilis_ (“noble speech”). Besides the noun _Latinitas_, it was referred to with the adverb _latine_ (“in (good) Latin”, literally “Latinly”) or its comparative _latinius_ (“in better Latin”, literally “more Latinly”). > > _Latinitas_ was spoken and written. It was the language taught in schools. [Prescriptive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescriptive_grammar) rules therefore applied to it, and when special subjects like [poetry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poetry) or [rhetoric](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetoric) were taken into consideration, additional rules applied. Since spoken _Latinitas_ has become extinct (in favor of subsequent registers), the rules of _politus_ (polished) texts may give the appearance of an artificial language. However, _Latinitas_ was a form of _sermo_ (spoken language), and as such, retains spontaneity. It seems to me that _Latintas_, or “the Latin of Good Families”, with its formal. prescribed rules, was one of the tools the Romans used to control their empire. There might not have been an official “academy”, but the rules were agreed upon in one way or another by the ruling class. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/65 "2024-06-18T07:47:30Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Somewhere Eric Blair and a whole bunch of lawyers are trying very hard to not piss themselves. I’ll put Orwell aside for now, but I think “legalese” is definitely a highly formalized language that the ruling class (lawyers) uses to keep themselves on top of the heap. If more people spoke it, we’d all be better off. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/66 "2024-06-18T08:04:39Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > But communicated what, exactly? Has any important information that benefited the human species and advanced our knowledge and well-being ever been communicated by grunts, gestures, and facial expressions? Who’s talking about grunts? I’m talking about language. Which exists absolutely independently of rules of semantics and grammar. > [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/2898): > > Could French-speaking medieval commoners from Normandy communicate with French-speaking medieval commoners from Provence? Only one of those groups spoke “French”, so not really, no. The other didn’t speak a different dialect, they spoke a different language. They’d have less difficultly speaking with a Catalonian or someone in the Italian Alps. That languages don’t line up with modern borders isn’t some revelation. > [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/2898): > > Well, take Latin for instance: Would you like me to count up all the empires and pan-national religions that existed before the Late Roman Republic? I wasn’t arguing that a polity codifying a language didn’t happen. I was arguing that other, much earlier, empires had empire-wide languages _without_ that. And that’s without going into Levantine and Silk Road trade - humans have not really had a problem communicating over distances. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/67 "2024-06-18T08:33:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Only one of those groups spoke “French”, so not really, no. The other didn’t speak a different dialect, they spoke a different language. They’d have less difficultly speaking with a Catalonian or someone in the Italian Alps. > > That languages don’t line up with modern borders isn’t some revelation. Fine - then Anjou and Aquitaine. Same story. > [@MrDibble](#): > > I wasn’t arguing that a polity codifying a language didn’t happen. I was arguing that other, much earlier, empires had empire-wide languages _without_ that. Show me an ancient empire that didn’t have an official “court” language, or if it did, that this language didn’t have generally accepted rules. Look, it is the nature of language to fragment into dialects and new languages. It’s why we have so many of them. The only way to slow this process is to fix them in place with rules. Now, you may not think that this is good thing - but I do. The more people understand each other, the better. Note that I’m saying that dialects should be eliminated, somehow. On the contrary - bilingualism and code-switching are excellent things. Who better than us to know? After all, neither of us is using his native language right now. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/68 "2024-06-18T09:35:37Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Fine - then Anjou and Aquitaine. Same story. No, I’m pretty sure they _would_ have been able to communicate. That’s why we consider them speaking _dialects_ of Old French, not separate languages (unless you’re counting Gascony in Aquitaine as it sometimes was, in which case, _some_ of them are) > [@Alessan](#): > > this language didn’t have generally accepted rules. “Generally accepted rules” is not the same as codified grammar and semantics. > [@Alessan](#): > > Look, it is the nature of language to fragment into dialects and new languages. It’s _also_ the nature of languages to syncreticize and creolize. > [@Alessan](#): > > The only way to slow this process Why the hell should we want to? > [@Alessan](#): > > Now, you may not think that this is good thing As a mother-tongue speaker of not one, but two, bastard amalgamation creoles, you bet I don’t. English wouldn’t even exist if the Normans were as rule-bound as the later French. > [@Alessan](#): > > After all, neither of us is using his native language right now. Not sure what you mean - English is very much one of my native languages. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/69 "2024-06-18T11:04:10Z")
This is one helluva tangent. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/70 "2024-06-18T11:11:09Z")
Only on this messageboard would a thread dedicated to complaining about other people evolve into a detailed debate on linguistics. ---
**Author:** ![saje](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saje/32/3631_2.png) [@saje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saje)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/71 "2024-06-18T11:18:04Z")
Way to be irritating and endearing at the same time! ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/72 "2024-06-18T11:42:26Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > It’s defined in dictionaries and thousands of grammar and usage guides, the key factor being broad agreement on the basic principles. That’s not how languages work. That’s not what dictionaries do. You’re arguing that physics textbooks keep satellites in orbit. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/73 "2024-06-18T11:58:59Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Only on this messageboard would a thread dedicated to complaining about other people evolve into a detailed debate on linguistics. Or is it a detailed complaint about other people’s silly ideas about linguistics? Third base! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/74 "2024-06-18T11:59:37Z")
Even our bitching is erudite. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/75 "2024-06-18T13:18:35Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > It’s frankly ridiculous to compare language standards with clothing or other cultural norms. Why would I care what someone wears or what food they prefer? But there’s a legitimate and compelling argument for being able to communicate with other people without having to code-switch or otherwise engage in mental gymnastics. The virtue of a standard isn’t any inherent superiority to anything else, it’s intrinsic in the fact of being a standard. You’re exactly like the person complaining about when or not to wear white. Clothing has legitimate purposes, but that doesn’t excuse complaining about nonconformity to your clothing expectations. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/76 "2024-06-18T13:36:13Z")
Descriptivists are David Attenborough. Prescriptivists are Cesar Milan. Sometimes, you revel in the endless variety of nature, other times, you need your dog to stop chewing the furniture. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/77 "2024-06-18T13:37:25Z")
> [@saje](#): > > Way to be irritating and endearing at the same time! _Endirritating_ ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/78 "2024-06-18T13:40:41Z")
> [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/2911): > > > [@saje](#): > > > > Way to be irritating and endearing at the same time! > > _Endirritating_ [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/hW9j5YG7cMM/maxresdefault.jpg "Community - Complisult/Explainabrag") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW9j5YG7cMM&t=1) ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/79 "2024-06-18T14:05:55Z")
> [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/2909): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > It’s frankly ridiculous to compare language standards with clothing or other cultural norms. Why would I care what someone wears or what food they prefer? But there’s a legitimate and compelling argument for being able to communicate with other people without having to code-switch or otherwise engage in mental gymnastics. The virtue of a standard isn’t any inherent superiority to anything else, it’s intrinsic in the fact of being a standard. > > You’re exactly like the person complaining about when or not to wear white. Clothing has legitimate purposes, but that doesn’t excuse complaining about nonconformity to your clothing expectations. If you think that there’s a parallel between the colour of someone’s clothing and my ability to comprehend what the hell they’re saying, then you’re entirely missing the point. > [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/2906): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > It’s defined in dictionaries and thousands of grammar and usage guides, the key factor being broad agreement on the basic principles. > > That’s not how languages work. That’s not what dictionaries do. Defining our lexicon and providing usage examples is precisely what dictionaries do, but as I said, there are also thousands of important grammar and usage guides. The fact that in the past some have been excessively stringent sometimes to the point of silliness doesn’t detract from the importance of the basic principles. If you end a sentence with a preposition I have no difficulty understanding your meaning, but if your whole sentence structure is mangled or you throw in pronouns with unknown referents, then I may genuinely not know what you’re trying to say. > [@What were you THINKING?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/2906): > > You’re arguing that physics textbooks keep satellites in orbit. I’m not, and they don’t. But physics textbooks written with both grammatical and mathematical correctness definitely help put those satellites there. In the whole general area of human endeavour, particularly in science, language precision is closely related to mathematical precision. ---
**Author:** ![pjd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pjd/32/3009_2.png) [@pjd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjd)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2024, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135/80 "2024-06-18T14:10:31Z")
From today’s i newspaper :- > **Quote of the day** > “The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from > sticking to the matter at hand” - Lewis Thomas [🔗](https://www.azquotes.com/quote/293261) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-bitching-about-language-pedantry-other-posters-language-and-language-in-general/1003135.md?page=5)