# For Christians.....a devotional **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2002, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257 "2002-12-21T20:07:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/281 "2002-12-30T18:41:07Z")
> [@](#): > > If we can keep personalities out of it, I’d very much like to see what people – regular participants in this thread who have taken sides and also lurkers and other readers who have not jumped in on one side or the other, have to say about the “styles” of spreading the message that are being advocated, on the one side by His and to a lesser extent by Joe, and on the other by CJ, Lib, Tris, and myself. In your minds, what is right, what wrong, what effective or ineffective, about the points being made? The problem here is that there is no singular message. I know well there’s a yearning for there to be a unity to be found. But there isn’t. As you went right on to note: > [@](#): > > It seems to me that at rock bottom there seems to be a difference in our perceptions of God’s nature… Yes. Trying to avoid True Scotsmen road, the two methods are in different ballparks that happen to share a few superficial similarities, but at foundation level are different things; different formulations, different narratives. People will go on–I’m one of them–about that rusty old saw of blind men and the elephant (sidenote: what the heck’s the provenance and origin of that? Wonder if that’s in the archives), which is fine as far as it goes. But in some cases, it isn’t blind men feeling bits of a single pachyderm; it’s sighted people–imperfect sight, sure, but sighted–one looking at a fire and rose that are one, and the other at wounds and nails. What’s “effecitve” in this depends on audience. When I came to the Dope, I had already been shaken repeatedly by what it pleases some to call “mystical” experiences–maybe they were just self-caused minor seizures in various bits of my brain, but who can say–and that _isness_ that I was seeing more easily was _never_ that condemning legalistic blood-fetish Other that the fundamentalist warning method proclaims. It couldn’t have been more alien to what I was witnessing–only just as alien in different ways–they could proclaim dire warnings about Quetzacoatl and his urgent need for dripping hearts excised with flint knifes, and it wouldn’t have been any more distant. That method, though, is undeniably effective, if only in _volume_. Before coming here, I literally had no idea that Christianity had any formulations of the Divine in it that weren’t, at heart, of the fundamentalist variety; the voice of the “fundie” method has been effective at drowning the other views out entirely (in individual listeners’ cases, not universally; perhaps I’m an isolated exception, the plural of anecdote not being data and all). As for the last quote I saw before hitting submit–it matters. To this viewer, the Christ that is proclaimed “in all ways” is simply often not the same being. Sometimes, to become narnish, that being proclaimed is Tash, no matter how many times it’s called Aslan. I don’t think that error comes from a flawed heart or evil intent (statistical outliers like Phelps notwithstanding) in the majority of cases–but I do think it comes from deep error, one with repercussions that echo throughout both this life and those that follow. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/282 "2002-12-30T18:48:12Z")
You and her and other like her can sure make someone disregard, even despise, Christianity, though. So much so, in fact, that they shut their ears to God’s calling. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/283 "2002-12-30T19:50:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe\_Cool \* > \*\*Translation: > > Libertarian: “God, I thank you that I am not like these other people – robbers, evildoers, adulterers – or even like this judgmental His4ever.” > > Sounds like you’re calling the kettle black, my friend. \*\* I think you totally misinterpreted Lib on this one. He was equating His4Ever to the Pharisee’s, I don’t think his intention was to equate himself with a “pure” unsinning follower of God. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/284 "2002-12-30T19:53:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe\_Cool \* > \*\*It’s not a game where we’re supposed to trap flies. You’d prefer that she be deceptive and tell only the happy parts? You’re right…it would be much better if we hid all the unpopular parts of our faith…that way it would be easier to trick people into “joining up.” :rolleyes: > > Read what you quoted. If God calls somebody, do you really think His4ever is powerful enough to drive them away? \*\* No one said it was a game. The honey aspect is about the approach. You can either be nice to someone, give them adequate reason’s to follow Christ, or you can come at them full of judgement and condescenion. Which do you think is going to get them to convert? Not to mention what is being lied about? How are you supposed to get someone to believe you when you focus on only the negative aspects of Christianity? Why should they believe you? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/285 "2002-12-30T19:59:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*Yes, I don’t know how I could say it clearer. I’m really trying to point out the difference in a person who knows the Lord and how he or she strives to live and one who doesn’t know Him and how they live; not the difference between two Christians, one thinking they’re better than the other. \*\* Just a little nitpick: What makes you think you are right and they are wrong? That’s where the “better” attitude seems to rear it’s head. Who’s to say that the other person doesn’t know Him better than you? Is your opinion of that person’s faith, really that correct? ---
**Author:** ![Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@Lady\_of\_the\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lady_of_the_Lake)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/286 "2002-12-30T20:20:43Z")
**Polycarp** , Your method of speaking God’s truth through love and a personal relationship regarding sin is more as I view God to truly be. Yes, he judges us, and on that day he will. Though, on that day I hope it is he who judges me…not those I have had to deal with in my life for they would surely find fault. As I have mentioned…people who speak as **H4E** and others…tend to bring up my own certainty that God cannot love me. How can he love insignificant ME if those who speak FOR HIM seem to despise sinners like me? I have been told that I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN because I DON’T condemn Homosexuality. How can a God who agrees with THAT philosophy possibly EVER forgive my sins of thought? If he has no seeming forgiveness for those who are Homosexuals…and if he condemns people to Hell for an act of love without thought of their hearts for him…how on earth can I believe that he will forgive MY sins of thought which are petty and sometimes wishing for others to fail? ☹ I had always thought he searched a persons HEART…and if there was love for him and if a person worked at living for him…that he would forgive that person for their transgressions… But it would seem…sometimes it seems as if those who speak FOR HIM say that is not so… That God has a full message…that love for him and belief are not enough in that full message. Does this thread brings tears to anyone? I think **Scotticher** (?) mentioned it as well… **Libertarian** and **Sunglasses** A simple thank you for you kind words. It helps very much and I read your posts with a lighter heart. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/287 "2002-12-30T20:40:15Z")
Beautiful Lady of the Lake May your heart always be light. “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” Jesus (Matthew 11:28-30) ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/288 "2002-12-30T20:42:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*The main point is: who can judge, who is without sin, let him/her cast the first stone. > > If this material is correct, and I believe it is mostly correct, then how can anyone say what is truth? > > In light of such profound ambiguity, confusion, doubt, can anyone say they know the real nature of God? > > If the Bible is truly God’s word as some believe, your God is unclear on almost every decision. This is not the God NDEers meet in their experiences. He is, instead, very precise, logical, and clear. He is love, compassion and truth. This is the reason I believe as I do. > > I know that everyone will be held responsible for their deeds, that is assured, but it is not our place to say what the corrections will be. Not ever. > > We will be much better off in the long run if we learn to love and accept the differences of others. Watching our own words and deeds, rather than those of our neighbors. > > It is important what you believe, to the extent that what you believe will determine how you see and treat others. If you are handing out love, expect love in return. Whatsoever ye sow, so shall ye reap. > > Love > Leroy \*\* [http://answering-islam.org/Bible/Contra/](http://answering-islam.org/Bible/Contra/) [http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/contralinks.html](http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/contralinks.html) [http://www.rationalchristianity.net/links/contradictions.html](http://www.rationalchristianity.net/links/contradictions.html) [http://hometown.aol.com/KingDavid10/Contradictions/Home.html](http://hometown.aol.com/KingDavid10/Contradictions/Home.html) ---
**Author:** ![Sdrawkcab](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sdrawkcab](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sdrawkcab)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/289 "2002-12-30T20:49:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe\_Cool \* > If God calls somebody, do you really think His4ever is powerful enough to drive them away? God calls everyone, though. Unless you think he doesn’t give a damn about certain people and is fine with them not hearing his call to repentance, in which case your God is a monster and a demon, and should be spit on instead of worshipped. If God calls everyone, and so much as one person is put off from investigating his call because of the evil done here by you, your wife and His4Ever, then yes, the witness of an evil person is enough to offset the draw of God’s call. People like His drove me far afield from Christianity at one point, with their lies and hate and damnation. It wasn’t until I started reading the writings of a real Christian, Bishop John Shelby Spong, that I found my way back. ---
**Author:** ![Sdrawkcab](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sdrawkcab](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sdrawkcab)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/290 "2002-12-30T20:53:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > [http://answering-islam.org/Bible/Contra/](http://answering-islam.org/Bible/Contra/) > > [http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/contralinks.html](http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/contralinks.html) > > [http://www.rationalchristianity.net/links/contradictions.html](http://www.rationalchristianity.net/links/contradictions.html) > > [http://hometown.aol.com/KingDavid10/Contradictions/Home.html](http://hometown.aol.com/KingDavid10/Contradictions/Home.html) Still letting other people do your thinking for you, I see. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/291 "2002-12-30T20:59:07Z")
Why use a brick when a book will do? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/292 "2002-12-30T21:07:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*[http://answering-islam.org/Bible/Contra/](http://answering-islam.org/Bible/Contra/) > > [http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/contralinks.html](http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/contralinks.html) > > [http://www.rationalchristianity.net/links/contradictions.html](http://www.rationalchristianity.net/links/contradictions.html) > > [http://hometown.aol.com/KingDavid10/Contradictions/Home.html](http://hometown.aol.com/KingDavid10/Contradictions/Home.html) \*\* Why are these links needed if there is no confusion in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Sdrawkcab](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sdrawkcab](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sdrawkcab)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/293 "2002-12-30T21:07:50Z")
His, setting aside contradictions in the Bible, what about all the things mentioned in the Bible that we know did not happen, such as the slaughter of innocents by Herod? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/294 "2002-12-30T21:13:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*[http://answering-islam.org/Bible/Contra/](http://answering-islam.org/Bible/Contra/) > > [http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/contralinks.html](http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/contralinks.html) > > [http://www.rationalchristianity.net/links/contradictions.html](http://www.rationalchristianity.net/links/contradictions.html) > > [http://hometown.aol.com/KingDavid10/Contradictions/Home.html](http://hometown.aol.com/KingDavid10/Contradictions/Home.html) \*\* [http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/personalitystudies/case\_types.cfm#NDE](http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/personalitystudies/case_types.cfm#NDE) Your answer to my Bible contradictions post is just a bunch of addresses to guys who think like you do and give their opinions on them. Funny, but really sad, that you believe their opinions make any difference. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/295 "2002-12-30T21:15:04Z")
Oops, I got the wrong address on my above post, sorry. [http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html](http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html) ---
**Author:** ![Sunglasses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5fc32e/32.png) [@Sunglasses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunglasses)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/296 "2002-12-30T21:24:10Z")
In sort of a response to **Poly** - what brought me back to Christ was the love I saw from Him. After thirty years of faith, my divorce and the unfortunate circumstances in which I subsequently found myself contributed to my turning my back on my God. I felt He had left me alone and drifting. After several years of anger and bitterness, I had an epiphany. I literally imagined the gifts He had given me as presents falling from the sky all around me. All of a sudden, I could SEE and FEEL how He had not deserted me . . . how He had been with me all along . . . how much He LOVED me. So I was not witnessed to, but the LOVE is what brought me back to God. And it’s the LOVE of God that makes me want to avoid sin and to be a better person. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/297 "2002-12-30T21:25:41Z")
Amen ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/298 "2002-12-30T21:26:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*Okay. I read it. Here it is: > > The problem is that you are not presenting Christ to people to accept or reject. You’re presenting yourself. > > When Christ walked into Levi’s house, He was gracious and loving and condemned no one in the room. He sat among them and ate and drank and told stories. This is not the man Whom you present to people. You present a man who refused even to go into the house. > > When Christ was called upon to condemn an adulteress, He refused, reminding people that none of them was without sin. And He sent the adultress on her way, telling her to sin no more. This is not the man Whom you present to people. You present a man who picked up a stone and threw it at her. > > Whenever Christ came upon sick people, he healed them. Whenever He came upon hungry people, he fed them. And when He came upon people who were poor in spirit, He told them that theirs is the Kingdom of God. > > But you present to men a Jesus who has no compassion for their spiritual poverty, who has already condemned them to hell, and who yields his own authority to a book. > > Jesus said that ALL authority on heaven and earth are given to HIM, not to the Bible. Is it any wonder that tax collectors and prostitutes will enter the Kingdom of God before you? > > “And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.” (1 John 4:16) > > Love is all that is required. And for those who do not love, they do not know God, and therefore they cannot present God’s Word to people. All they can present is lies. > > “Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.” (1 John 4:8) > > If you think that believing in the monster that you present is the road to salvation, then you are sadly mistaken. You do not present Jesus to people; you present the devil. > > You chase people away from God’s Kingdom. You close the door of heaven to others, and you refuse to go in yourself. You thank God that you aren’t like the evil-doers. > > You separate yourself from others by measuring your sins against theirs. And when you find that they come up short, you call upon Bible verses like Satan in the desert to mark them as condemned. > > God does not need your assistance in winnowing out the sinners from the saints. He gave you one simple commandment, that you love others as you love yourself. > > You do not hear me because you do not hear God. You hear only your own conscience, and it soothes you by telling you that you’re not as bad as all those icky people. It tells you that you’re different because at least you try. You judge yourself by your intentions, yet you judge others by their behavior. > > Wake up! Repent of your arrogance! Stop trying to trap Jesus Christ into your little box. He is the Word of God. Stop placing burdens upon the shoulders of others that you are unwilling and unable to bear yourself. Stop learning from men who do not love, and start learning from the Holy Spirit. > > I know that you will ignore these words. You have to because you cannot bring yourself to be humbled enough to hear them. I know that someone will come to your defense, and that you will interpret that as a vindication. And I know that you will say that these are judgmental words. But these are words of warning. > > The day will come when you will watch those you have condemned with your Bible verses walk into heaven before you. You will call upon the Lord and He will say, “Who are you? I don’t recognize you.” > > That’s because you stand outside of Levi’s house thumping your Bible, and pointing out how everyone in the house is a sinner. > > You’d better get on inside that house, Sister, because that’s where Jesus is. \*\* Hurray for this powerful, positive post. Just keep quoting the positive, love oriented verses, and let those who will, teach fear. Love will defeat them easily in the end. They are running people away from God and Jesus and church in record numbers. Who would want to go somewhere they are condemned, judged, and frightened by people who think they speak for God. The Bible can be used as a tool for good or evil, depending on the heart of the preacher. Always choose love in all things and let the devil have the rest. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/299 "2002-12-30T21:28:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*[http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/personalitystudies/case\_types.cfm#NDE](http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/personalitystudies/case_types.cfm#NDE) > > Your answer to my Bible contradictions post is just a bunch of addresses to guys who think like you do and give their opinions on them. Funny, but really sad, that you believe their opinions make any difference. > > Love > Leroy \*\* Their opinions do matter, because they _have to be right_ because they agree with her. Any opinion that does not agree is wrong and a bad interpretation. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/300 "2002-12-30T21:29:41Z")
I disagree to agree…😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257.md?page=16)