# For Christians.....a devotional **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2002, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257 "2002-12-21T20:07:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/121 "2002-12-23T18:14:07Z")
I did deal with it. You have stated your opinion and proved that your opinion is based on lies and prejudice. You also accused many of us in this thread of being prejudiced. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/122 "2002-12-23T18:22:04Z")
Oh well. My interpretation of it is that it’s directed toward those who profess to be disciples of Christ. One who believes that he or she is chosen to turn people _toward_ Christ, and if **His4Ever** is such a one, well…?? ::shrugs:: This is not directed toward all Christians, the idea that sympathy is a bad thing. That’s ridiculous. I read it as: one who is honestly striving to ‘save’ others focus more on the path through Jesus and not on helping the ‘sinner’ in some other fashion. For the rest of us, Love thy neighbor and Judge not still apply. JMO. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/123 "2002-12-23T18:32:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > \*\*[Moderator Hat: ON] > > Joe\_Cool said: > > A devotional that was _guaranteed_ to start a debate because it was, effectively, witnessing. > > You can believe anything you like. You’re wrong, but you are still free to believe it. Oh, and the other thing is that all of those you listed would have known better than to post it in MPSIMS to begin with, I suspect. > > If you want to continue discussing the “devotional,” go ahead. But the issue of its being moved was already decided. If you have a problem with the moderators’ decision, take it to e-mail or the Pit.\*\* Oddly enough, I’m fairly certain that I didn’t say I have a problem with the decision, nor did I attempt to contest it. I said only that I see things differently, and that I wouldn’t personally have made the same decision - **In response to a poster who said that one of the reasons His4ever was attacked is her choice of forum for this thread**. I really don’t care which forum it’s in. But the fact that she was guaranteed to be attacked for sharing her thoughts isn’t her fault, and she didn’t INTEND to cause a debate. I agree that moving a thread is up to the staff, and it is not a punishment. But posting something in a forum that the staff doesn’t agree with is not a valid reason to be attacked by the other posters. Shouldn’t they let the moderators do their own job? I know you don’t like it when people disagree with you you, but though I don’t agree, I didn’t argue with the move - I only touched on the topic in response to somebody who mentioned it - and so there’s no need for you to look for a problem where none exists. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/124 "2002-12-23T18:42:20Z")
Without giving my opinion on the content of **H4E** ’s OP, I have to agree that she should not be vilified for posting what she thought was a harmless little devotional that was aimed only at Christians. She was not intending to preach at heathens like me, but to reprove the faithful, something which she is just as entitled to do as **Monty** or [b[Joe\_Cool\*\* are. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/125 "2002-12-23T18:44:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tee \* > \*\*Oh well. My interpretation of it is that it’s directed toward those who profess to be disciples of Christ. One who believes that he or she is chosen to turn people _toward_ Christ, and if **His4Ever** is such a one, well…?? ::shrugs:: > > This is not directed toward all Christians, the idea that sympathy is a bad thing. That’s ridiculous. I read it as: one who is honestly striving to ‘save’ others focus more on the path through Jesus and not on helping the ‘sinner’ in some other fashion. For the rest of us, Love thy neighbor and Judge not still apply. JMO. \*\* Tee, the point of the passage in question is that sympathy and understanding ALONE are bad. Human sympathy and understanding in the face of problems don’t solve anything, from the Christian point of view. The point of the writing is that anything that doesn’t lead to Christ is bad by definition - because it doesn’t lead to Christ. Your sympathy and understanding are your strength. Your human desire to help. Leading the person to have faith in the human condition and in human nature, rather than in Christ. You can’t just take a sentence by itself and ignore the context in which it was written. And “to judge”, in the sense of “judge not…” means to condemn, not to discern. It means to carry out a sentence, not to determine right or wrong. In the case of the woman who was about to be stoned for adultery, the crime that Jesus made his point against wasn’t the saying that she was wrong. It was carrying out the sentence of stoning. We can judge actions according to right and wrong. But we do NOT have the authority to carry out sentence based on the Law. Only God can do that. Jesus himself, when he showed her mercy, told her to “sin no more.” Mercy is meaningless if the person thinks it is deserved. She WAS sinning, and therefore needed Christ’s mercy. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/126 "2002-12-23T19:07:56Z")
I totally agree with your post Joe. My objection would have been to the idea that sympathy and understanding isn’t necessary, or that it is somehow contrary, as in this post: > [@](#): > > _originally posted by His4Ever_ > **I took it to be saying that people that are caught up in lives of sin don’t need our pity and sympathy, they need to have their need of Christ held up to them and be told the truth about what they’re doing.** I’m an (unapologetically) liberal Christian…not having much in common with literalists, I might be one of the very people the OP was directed to. 😉 That’s ok too. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/127 "2002-12-23T20:38:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > \*\*Would you get him by to school by telling him he’s stupid and going to end up in jail if he doesn’t or by telling him the benefits of an education such as generally higher earnings potential, better job prospects and higher respect? \*\* I’m not quite sure the best way to go about that. For me, perhaps it would be a mixture of both consequenes and benefits. I hope that I wouldn’t call him or her stupid. I might express that if they made the wrong decision that they were deciding something they may later regret. After all if the boy or girl continues as they are, they just may wind up in jail. That statement could be true, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/128 "2002-12-23T20:38:23Z")
Joe\_Cool wrote: > [@](#): > > And I honestly don’t believe that it would have been moved if the name on the thread had been Polycarp, Libertarian, or Triskadecamus, rather than His4ever. 😃 Good lord! The notion that I get any sort of special breaks is patently absurd. In fact, I’ve been the brunt of considerable moderatorial wrath. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/129 "2002-12-23T21:05:43Z")
Greetings, all. I want to pop in for two reasons: First, to suggest that maybe much of what **Joe Cool** had to say is apropos the entire situation that’s been presented. I disagree that sympathy and compassion are **ever** wrong, but I do see his point that in many situations they must be accompanied by something more, and of course in a Christian context the idea of introducing others who do not know Jesus to Him as a person, as a real individual with an influence on their lives in one way or another, is important. My objection to “evangelical evangelism” (to create a solecism from the two disparate meanings of the term) has always been, not that it is in any way improper, but that it’s _ineffective_. Save for **lel** ’s special case, not one person seems to be moved to inquire into whether he or she should believe in this person who is motivating **His4Ever** to say what she does. (There are those who would consider that result good! ;)) But what shows God to me many times is not the words of Scripture, the beauty of a service, the thoughts of a theologian, but the love implicit and explicit in people _caring for_ other people – and **His** , there’s a profoundly moving example of that, with _me_ as the recipient of all that love, at the top of MPSIMS right now. And that is perhaps the most humbling experience anyone can imagine – all I’m able to say is, “Wow, I don’t _deserve_ all this!” I’d sincerely suggest, **His** , that while you may see it your call to “be constant in and out of season, standing firm for His word whatever betide” – you need to take serious stock of whether what you are saying and doing is accomplishing the ends for which you intend it. My honest assessment is that it is not. One serious problem I have here is your comment: > [@](#): > > That’s kind of how it is, heaven forbid thay we should offend anyone so let’s not tell the whole truth or lets’ water it down a bit, etc. etc. Anyway, that’s all I’ve got to say right now. Have a nice evening and Merry Christmas to all. \<\>\< † I don’t know if I can make this clear, but just as you might say to a devout Orthodox Jew, “It’s not whether you abstain from pork and working on Saturday that matters, but rather that you follow the _moral_ law as set forth in Scripture,” those of us who read Jesus’s words and see what **He** seemed to put emphasis on are saying to you, “It’s not whether or not you follow the law at all that matters, but what you feel, _and show you feel_, towards the Triune God and the human beings he has created to share this planet with you.” “Watered down,” Hell! It’s the tungsten-tough job of feeling and showing love towards God with every fiber of your being, every moment of your life, even when you might be tempted to feel despair (and I know that), and towards the people whom He loves as much as He loves you – whether or not they’ve acknowledged Him and whether or not they’re engaged in something that you, or Scripture, would define as sin. * * * My wife has been reading this thread along with me, and she has the following comment: > [@](#): > > _From **Skulldigger** (Mrs. Polycarp)_ > > Re: **His4Ever** , while I don’t agree with everything she says or her way of saying it, I can understand where she’s coming from, because I’ve been there. > > I was quite the “evangelist” in the early days of my conversion, and believed that anyone who didn’t “accept Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior, in a public ceremony, in accordance with Scriptureal guidelines,” was going straight to Hell. > > Then I “crossed the crowded ways of life and walked the paths of wretchedness and need” and had to come to realize in my heart that preaching, “Ye must be saved” is not the way to reach people. The fact is that _everyone_ was saved the moment Jesus drew His last breath. But it’s kinda hard to make someone believe that when they walk the streets in search of a place to sleep, at the same time wondering where their next meal is coming from. To be saved is to _ **be** _ Christ to them. > > “Even as you have done it to the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me.” A crust of bread, given in His name, is, for me, what being a Christian is all about. **His4Ever** shounds like she might recently have had some sort of conversion experience. What she reads for a devotional obviously comforts her in some way. I gather many are offended by what she has shared. **His4Eever** , read whatever devotional comforts you, but people might pay more attention if they aren’t upset or frightened by what you choose to post. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/130 "2002-12-23T21:14:08Z")
Poly: And if the person standing there doing the “correcting, reproving, and instructing” is at that very moment publicly _not_ following the law he wants his audience to follow? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/131 "2002-12-23T21:21:51Z")
**Monty** , if you are my brother, it’s my responsibility to show love towards you by encouraging you when you’re down, rejoicing with you when you’re up, affirming you when you’re right, and challenging you when you’re wrong. But equally it’s your responsibility to be doing the same thing to me, as **my** brother. If that sense of brotherhood and sisterhood doesn’t exist, then reproof, correction, and instruction are not going to “take” – because there will be no love behind it. I trust that makes clear my answer to the question you’re implying? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/132 "2002-12-23T22:25:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joe\_Cool \* > \*\*I didn’t set myself up to decide anything. I stated my opinion. Problem? Deal. \*\* Though your opinion is proven to be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/133 "2002-12-23T22:27:36Z")
There is a verse in the Bible (someone will find it, I am sure; its NT) that says Mercy triumphs over judgment. So…if we are merciful, we will not be judged harshly. This I believe, IMHO, is the opposite of what His4Eve ris preaching. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/134 "2002-12-23T22:56:45Z")
Not meant as a censure of anyone. Just some relevant verses. _James 2:13_ > [@](#): > > For the one that does not practice mercy will have his judgment without mercy. Mercy exults triumphantly over judgment. _Jude 22, 23_ > [@](#): > > Also, continue showing mercy to some that have doubts; save them by snatching them out of the fire. But continue showing mercy to others, doing so with fear, while you hate even the inner garment that has been stained by the flesh. _Matthew 11:19_ > [@](#): > > All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/135 "2002-12-23T22:58:19Z")
Well! Thanks for the verse. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/136 "2002-12-23T23:06:30Z")
You are welcome. It’s snowing here. Rather pretty. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/137 "2002-12-23T23:09:09Z")
Its horribly cold here (30!) No snow, but I’d rather be in Texas! ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/138 "2002-12-23T23:38:42Z")
Monty: While my overall opinions of you and of the Mormon church remain largely unchanged for many other reasons that I really don’t want to waste time arguing about (“As man is, God once was; as God is, man may be,” etc), I will give you this: I was wrong. I managed to confuse Mormon beliefs with something else (not sure what it was that I combined with JW teachings and decided it was Mormon). From [http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,810-1,00.html](http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,810-1,00.html) : > [@](#): > > Who is Jesus Christ? > > Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He was the Creator, He is our Savior, and He will be our Judge. And from [http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/m/mormon/mormon-idx?type=DIV0&byte=639](http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/m/mormon/mormon-idx?type=DIV0&byte=639) : > [@](#): > > …And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations… So I retract and apologize for the remark about Mormons believing that Jesus is a created being. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2002, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/139 "2002-12-23T23:39:42Z")
**Then I “crossed the crowded ways of life and walked the paths of wretchedness and need” and had to come to realize in my heart that preaching, “Ye must be saved” is not the way to reach people. The fact is that everyone was saved the moment Jesus drew His last breath. But it’s kinda hard to make someone believe that when they walk the streets in search of a place to sleep, at the same time wondering where their next meal is coming from. To be saved is to be Christ to them.** While I appreciate your comments, **Mrs. Polycarp** , I humbly disagree that everyone is automatically saved by Jesus’ death. If this were so, there would be no need to go unto all the world and preach the gospel as Jesus’ commanded His disciples to do. It’s an individual decision each person much make. The fact that in Acts 16:30-31 where the jailor falls down before Paul and Silas and asks what he must do to be saved and they give him an answer shows that it isn’t an automatic thing granted universally to all at the moment of Christ’s death. As far as those who are walking the streets wondering where their next meal is coming from, of course we should try to meet their needs first and show love in that way. After that, I believe we should share the good news of Christ with them. I believe that’s what they do at the mission, feed and provide a place to stay and also share the gospel. So, while in a way I can agree with some of what you say; I don’t agree with everything. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257/140 "2002-12-24T00:18:36Z")
Well, Joe, you’ve apologized for one half of the wrong. And refused to recognize the other half. And my overall opinion of you remains the same based on my observation of you, not any preconceptions based on lies about the group you belong to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-christians-a-devotional/144257.md?page=8)