# For Fuck's Sake, "It's" means It Is, "Its" means "belonging to it"! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 14, 2007, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823 "2007-03-14T00:19:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/61 "2007-03-14T20:17:19Z")
Writing is not language. It’s a construction, a tool, used to represent language. It lacks the subtexts of speech, such as stress and intonation. Because of this, it needs its own rules and distinguishing marks such as it’s/its and there/they’re/their in order to properly convey meaning. Misusing the rules of writing may not necessarily lead to incomprehensibility, but it does impede clear understanding and forces a reader to study and consciously parse a poorly written sentence, which can cause irritation with the writer because understanding language should not be difficult. I’ve studied linguists and am in the descriptivist camp. I happily split infinitives, end sentences with prepositions, and even use the word jive instead of jibe. But there are rules for writing that are not applicable to speech, and they’re required for effective communication. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/62 "2007-03-14T20:22:56Z")
[QUOTE=Seven] These threads should be lumped with the _outrage 'o the day_ threads. [/QUOTE] I _hope_ you did this deliberately. ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/63 "2007-03-14T20:25:57Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] There was a time when I thinked that was true. Not anymore. [/QUOTE] You may be right. I’ll have to give that some think. ---
**Author:** ![Daithi\_Lacha](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/daithi_lacha/32/5430_2.png) [@Daithi\_Lacha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daithi_Lacha)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/64 "2007-03-14T20:46:52Z")
[QUOTE=Mindfield] Shouldn’t that be “And anuvva fing wot gets my goat?” And yeah, bruv, it can be “no-one” or “no one.” [/QUOTE] Ooh! Are you Phiw or Grahn’? And are you wif Kaffy down at the Caf? Eastenders joke. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/65 "2007-03-14T21:00:32Z")
[Michael Palin] It’s… [/Michael Palin] ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/66 "2007-03-14T23:04:09Z")
[QUOTE=MrSquishy] Hmm. I expected to see at least one “get with the times, you old fuddy duddies” post by now. How about this: If the rules are so complicated that lots of people are making the same common mistakes, maybe we need to change the rules. Or maybe: If you understood what he was trying to say, where’s the problem? [/QUOTE] I agree. The problem with English is that it came from many sources. I find it shabby that we write ‘Jack’s coat’ but not ‘it’s coat’. I have arguments with people about ‘optimums’ or ‘optima’. I know what ‘deja vu’ and ‘zugswang’ mean - they are now English phrases. I will happily split an infinitive. ‘i before e except after c’ is a weird rule (and I will not pass it on to my heirs). I think it’s far more important to know the difference between ‘infer’ and ‘imply’ than to worry about its’ or ‘it’s’. ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/67 "2007-03-14T23:14:54Z")
[QUOTE=UncleRojelio] This thread has really peaked my interest in the apostrophe. [/QUOTE] _twitches_ ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/68 "2007-03-14T23:16:51Z")
_Why_ is it “its”, anyway? What’s the value of the arbitrarily dropped apostrophe from a possessive? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2007, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/69 "2007-03-14T23:23:37Z")
[QUOTE=glee] I find it shabby that we write ‘Jack’s coat’ but not ‘it’s coat’. [/QUOTE] It may be shabby, but it’s consistent. Nouns: Jack =\> Jack’s coat the dog =\> the dog’s coat the family =\> the family’s coats Pronouns: he =\> his coat she =\> her coat you =\> your coat me =\> my coat they =\> their coats us =\> our coats who =\> whose coat (this gets confused with ‘who’s’, sadly) Nouns have a regular rule, apply ‘s (with some exceptions, like Chas’ coat). Pronouns are completely irregular, replacing whole words with new ones and not using apostrophes at all. Its is really a completely different word from it, just as his is completely different from he. I realize this is a distinction that’s mostly academic and isn’t made by the general public, but there is a consistency among pronouns. It only looks shabby when you begin comparing it with nouns. ---
**Author:** ![Mindfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindfield/32/19759_2.png) [@Mindfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mindfield)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/70 "2007-03-15T00:14:13Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] _Why_ is it “its”, anyway? What’s the value of the arbitrarily dropped apostrophe from a possessive? [/QUOTE] Because “it” is a pronoun, so it follows the same rule all the other pronouns do. “It” also has the unique distinction of being the only generic pronoun, and is capable of being used in a contraction, so the distinction needs to be made to avoid confusion. [QUOTE=glee] I find it shabby that we write ‘Jack’s coat’ but not ‘it’s coat’. [/quote] See above. [QUOTE=glee] ‘i before e except after c’ is a weird rule (and I will not pass it on to my heirs). [/quote] This “rule” has more exceptions than any other rule in the English language. The memory aid phrase is often cited with a second verse: “except when said ‘ay’ as in ‘neighbour’ and ‘weigh’.” This covers most of the rest of the exceptions, but some still exist. It doesn’t apply, for example, to pluralization of words ending in “-cy” (“fallacies,” “vacancies.”) It also doesn’t apply to foreign imports. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/71 "2007-03-15T00:18:59Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Puppies cant putt. They’re paws cant grasp the putter. [/QUOTE] You can putt the puppies. Its more fun to drive them off the tee though. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/72 "2007-03-15T00:54:36Z")
[QUOTE=BayleDomon] Nouns have a regular rule, apply ‘s (with some exceptions, like Chas’ coat). [/QUOTE] ‘s should be applied even to proper names that end with S. Take it from a guy named Jones; “Jones’s” is better than "Jones’". It looks better, it’s more consistent, and that’s the way it should be pronounced. “Jones’” is usually accepted, but it’s sloppy. Allegedly some people pronounce it that way so maybe in some places it’s more correct than it is here, and most guidebooks concede the commonality of both and suggest you do with pronounciation. I don’t hear people say it that way but maybe in some necks of the woods they do. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/73 "2007-03-15T01:32:09Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] ‘s should be applied even to proper names that end with S. Take it from a guy named Jones; “Jones’s” is better than "Jones’". It looks better, it’s more consistent, and that’s the way it should be pronounced. “Jones’” is usually accepted, but it’s sloppy. [/QUOTE] True 'nuff. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/74 "2007-03-15T02:42:03Z")
[QUOTE=BayleDomon] who =\> whose coat (this gets confused with ‘who’s’, sadly) [/QUOTE] If this is ever explained to me with simple rules, so that I can internalize it, and know the difference, I shall never call that person an asshole in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/75 "2007-03-15T03:02:06Z")
It’s the same rule as for it’s: if you can substitute ‘who is’ and have the sentence or phrase make sense, use who’s. Otherwise use whose. Or did you mean something else? It’s not something that can be internalized easily simply because of the homophonaeity, like its/it’s, so you generally have to pause while writing to recall which is correct. Better the writer think about what they’re writing than the reader get confused, though. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/76 "2007-03-15T03:06:41Z")
[QUOTE=BayleDomon] It’s the same rule as for it’s: if you can substitute ‘who is’ and have the sentence or phrase make sense, use who’s. Otherwise use whose. Or did you mean something else? [/QUOTE] No, that’s exactly what I meant; no one has ever explained it that way. Thanks! Asshole. Oops. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/77 "2007-03-15T05:18:53Z")
[QUOTE=flight] A wonderful book for anyone who felt it necessary to post to this thread: [Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation](http://www.amazon.com/Eats-Shoots-Leaves-Tolerance-Punctuation/dp/1592400876?tag2=gp04-20) [/QUOTE] I like your taste in reading material. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/78 "2007-03-15T07:42:38Z")
[QUOTE=Frank] If this [who =\> whose coat (this gets confused with ‘who’s’, sadly)] is ever explained to me with simple rules, so that I can internalize it, and know the difference, I shall never call that person an asshole in the Pit. [/QUOTE] Who’s got whose? ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/79 "2007-03-15T08:49:34Z")
> [@](#): > > I find it shabby that we write ‘Jack’s coat’ but not ‘it’s coat’. But we do write ‘it’s coat’. If someone says ‘you’re wearing a real sharp coal there’ , then you might reply ‘it’s coat, not coal’ (assuming you are, in fact, not wearing a lump of coal). The point is that ‘it’s’ means ‘it is’ and so when you use ‘it’s’ to mean ‘belonging to it’, you confuse people. You write ‘it’s coat’ and the reader will have to reread to figure out what is being referred to as another name that should be called ‘coat’ and why it was necessary to make a correction. In short, the reader, seeing ‘it’s coat’, thinks ‘what is?’ ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823/80 "2007-03-15T09:31:54Z")
[QUOTE=flight] A wonderful book for anyone who felt it necessary to post to this thread: [Eats, Shoots & Leaves: The Zero Tolerance Approach to Punctuation](http://www.amazon.com/Eats-Shoots-Leaves-Tolerance-Punctuation/dp/1592400876?tag2=gp04-20) [/QUOTE] A book written by an amateur, and full of errors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-its-means-it-is-its-means-belonging-to-it/395823.md?page=5)