# For fuck's sake, the flag burning amendment AGAIN?! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 22, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434 "2005-06-22T20:45:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/241 "2005-06-24T00:41:07Z")
Let’s also keep in mind the PR aspects of flag-burning. Which is more likely to be covered and broadcast by the US media: A bunch of foreigners marching with banners written in a language most Americans can’t read, chanting slogans in that foreign language; or said bunch of foreigners waving signs with “Death to America” written in English, applauding as Old Glory is torched? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/242 "2005-06-24T00:48:56Z")
**BwanaBob** , I appreciate you being open minded enough to reconsider your views. That’s more than most people will do. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/243 "2005-06-24T01:01:24Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Like I said to JohnMace, I’m at a loss as to what it is that makes me hold burning the flag in a different light compared to “conventional” forms of protest. > > I guess I’ve seen too many news reports showing non-citizens crapping all over our flag in their expressions of hatred. > > So, maybe I’ll have to reconsider. > > A good evening to you all. In an expressoin of “hatred” or anger? Something else to think about if you’re reconsidering. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/244 "2005-06-24T01:58:13Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > But you cross the line (no pun intended) when you paint on someone else’s door. > > Should it be illegal to display a swastika in your yard? How about a confederate battle flag? How about a hammer and cycle? > > After all, speech that doesn’t arouse emotions hardly needs protection. We don’t have a first amendment so that people can sing the praises of apple pie. I think the difference between a burning cross and the other symbols you mentioned is the implicit message it sends. Historically a burning cross sends blacks the message of “You’re not wanted here, get out or we will use violence agianst you”. The threat of phyiscal violence is what seperates a burning cross from other symbols. On the other hand, swastika’s, confederate flags and the hammer and cycle have not been closely associated with widespread violence in this country. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/245 "2005-06-24T01:59:03Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > You rationally tell me that you don’t hate the country and believe that you are expressing political discontent by flag burning. Okay. I guess my problem with this is that the vermin overseas who truly hate us do the same thing; they in effect have co-opted that act and in my eyes (and apparently others) have turned the act into an act of hate. So fucking WHAT? There is no law anywhere that mandates that everyone has to love this country. Even if the person is burning the flag because they hate America, and because they hate veterans-SO WHAT? THAT IS THEIR RIGHT!!! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/246 "2005-06-24T02:01:16Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > 1. Am I using the term incorrectly? Around here if someone taunts someone with ethnic slurs that’s considered hate speech and they get in a shit load of trouble. If by “around here” you mean this board, this is a privately owned message board, dumbass. The first amendment doesn’t apply here. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/247 "2005-06-24T02:02:53Z")
Guinastasia, I feel the way you do, including about the fact he hasn’t responded to my post. However, please remember he confessed to having some thinking to do, ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/248 "2005-06-24T13:35:29Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I believe you made a claim that putting up a swastika on a billboard across the street from a synagogue is considered a hate crime. I’m just asking for a cite. [It would certainly seem so.](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&biw=996&q=swastika+%22hate+crime%22&btnG=Search) > [@](#): > > Then there’s the discussion about hate crimes, and I haven’t weighed in on that yet. You’ve certainly spent enough time harassing those who \*have \* about it. At some point you have to start carrying your own share of the load here, though. **BwanaBob** , good on yer, mate. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/249 "2005-06-24T14:11:51Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [It would certainly seem so.](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&biw=996&q=swastika+%22hate+crime%22&btnG=Search) A google search on “swastika + hate crime” is not proof, and you know it. Why don’t you just admit that you made a mistake? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/250 "2005-06-24T14:19:22Z")
Time for you to fuck off, isn’t it? :putz: The topic is flag-burning. You could choose to contribute to the discussion, but have chosen not to. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/251 "2005-06-24T14:20:27Z")
Here’s a mistake I made: Miscoding :putz: ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/252 "2005-06-24T14:20:57Z")
Is flag burning offensive? yes, it is. I think we need to separate thoughts, feelings and actions here. I feel that burning the flag is(sometimes) offensive–I am offended when someone does it. I think that burning the flag is a type of free speech and can be quite effective in getting an issue some attention. I have not yet acted on either my feelings or my thoughts–but if this amendment passes, I will purchase a flag and burn it(and feel silly doing so\*, and think that the cops are coming to get me–but I will do it, nonetheless.) - It’s a grand gesture and I am not given much to grand gestures. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/253 "2005-06-24T14:21:34Z")
Here’s another one: :wally ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/254 "2005-06-24T15:09:35Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > [It would certainly seem so.](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&biw=996&q=swastika+%22hate+crime%22&btnG=Search) > > You’ve certainly spent enough time harassing those who \*have \* about it. At some point you have to start carrying your own share of the load here, though. > > **BwanaBob** , good on yer, mate. Am I missing something? None of the links on the first page showed a situation where display of a swastika was deemed to be illegal hate speech. The ones that aren’t message boards seem to indicate situations where vandalizing \*\*someone else’s property \*\*by painting swastikas was seen to be a hate crime. That’s rather a different situation, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/255 "2005-06-24T15:20:37Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Am I missing something? No, you’re not missing anything. \*\*Elvis \*\*likes to make shit up to bolster his arguments, then when someone calls him on it, he throws up a smokescreen (like that raw google search) or claims that you are changing the subject. He’s doing the exact same thing over in the \*\*Durbin \*\*thread right now, too. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/256 "2005-06-24T15:24:24Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > \*\*Elvis \*\ ***likes to make shit up** to bolster his arguments, then **when someone calls him on it, he throws up a smokescreen** (like that raw google search) or **claims that you are changing the subject**. No, I am pretty sure that’s you. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/257 "2005-06-24T15:28:50Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > No, I am pretty sure that’s you. 😛 No, he’s right. It’s Elvis. See his inaccurate screed/rant in Great Debates about the “Pubbies”. When it was proved that he was in error, he at first ignored it from one member, and then said I was “nitpicking” when I brought it up myself. He had said that Bush put Tomlinson on the CPB, when in fact Clinton did. It is difficult to imagine the sort of intellectual emptiness that is required to refuse the admission of error — especially on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/258 "2005-06-24T15:31:28Z")
> [@villa](#): > > vandalizing \*\*someone else’s property \*\*by painting swastikas was seen to be a hate crime. That’s rather a different situation, isn’t it? Not really. The crime isn’t the vandalism (rather, that’s a separate crime), but the hate itself. Certainly you can brandish a swastika without vandalizing property. There are, in fact, a number of links on that page that demonstrate that - and no, I don’t propose to get into it further without a demonstration of relevance to the topic of the thread, though. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/259 "2005-06-24T15:36:47Z")
Then I am being dumb here. Which of the links shows a constitutionally valid law in the US for display of a swastika? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/260 "2005-06-24T15:38:47Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I believe you made a claim that putting up a swastika on a billboard across the street from a synagogue is considered a hate crime. I’m just asking for a cite. I tried looking up “swastika” and “hate crime” and “guilty” on my Lexis/Nexis account, just to see what sort of connection there might be. The results tended to show that those charged and convicted with hate crimes for displaying swastikas had generally painted those symbols on someone else’s property out of a desire to intimidate and threaten. Here are some examples from the stories i found. I can’t give links, because Lexis/Nexis requires a subscription. > [@](#): > > In late 2000 and early 2001, Brian Raymond Hauth indoctrinated five teenage boys with racist propaganda and directed them to burn crosses at a Portland park and to spray-paint racist graffiti at a Korean church and a Jewish cemetery. > > On Monday, U.S. District Judge Garr King sentenced Hauth, 27, to serve nearly three years in prison for a hate crime. > > The sentencing hearing caps a long investigation in which the juveniles were prosecuted in state court, and Hauth agreed to plead guilty to one federal charge: conspiracy to deny civil rights. > > \ > > An FBI affidavit says the gang, which dubbed itself the “Oregon State Boot Boys,” called Hauth commander. The boys were between 14 and 17 years old when they were charged in July 2001 with first-degree conspiracy to commit intimidation and first-degree intimidation. Four also were charged with criminal mischief. > > They each pleaded guilty to various crimes and were placed on probation. The Oregonian hasn’t named them because they were juveniles when the crimes occurred. > > Hauth was charged in October 2002 with conspiracy to deny civil rights through intimidation and using fire to commit a felony. The latter charge was dropped as part of the plea. > > In pleading guilty in August, Hauth said he recruited the boys, directed their activities and drove them to the places where the crimes were committed. > > (_The Oregonian_, December 9, 2003, p. C01) and > [@](#): > > Alex Curtis has apologized to four San Diego civic leaders for harassing and threatening them, but he stopped short of disavowing the white supremacist beliefs he once expressed on his Web site. > > Curtis, 25, pleaded guilty last month to three federal civil-rights conspiracy charges. As part of his plea agreement, he agreed to meet privately with the leaders to apologize for hate crimes he has admitted committing over several years. > > In a series of separate, closed-door meetings this week, Curtis apologized to U.S. Rep. Bob Filner, La Mesa Mayor Art Madrid, civil rights activist Clara Harris, and Morris Casuto, the regional director of the Anti-Defamation League. > > Beginning in 1997, the four periodically found their offices and homes defaced and barraged with Nazi and racist propaganda. > > (_San Diego Union-Tribune_, April 19, 2001, p. B1) and > [@](#): > > A BRONX NEO-Nazi who recruited youths to slap swastikas and anti-Semitic stickers on Jewish centers, synagogues and other places in the Bronx and Westchester is going to get a much-needed education. > > Thomas Zibelli, a 34-year-old security guard, pleaded guilty to reduced charges - as hate crimes - in both jurisdictions last week to escape jail time. > > Instead, when he comes up for sentencing, he’s expected to be placed on five years’ probation and ordered to attend “ethnic sensitivity classes.” > > \ > > Zibelli pleaded guilty in the Bronx to one count of felony aggravated harassment as a hate crime. > > (_New York Daily News_, April 11, 2005, p. 1) and > [@](#): > > A Winnetka man who police said led a band of white supremacists was found guilty Thursday of a hate crime for his part in spray painting swastikas at a Northfield synagogue in 1997. > > A jury in Skokie deliberated for less than three hours before convicting Patrick Langballe, 24. He faces as much as three years in prison when he’s sentenced Dec. 14. > > \ > > Langballe, who prosecutors said founded a group he called the White War Commission, also was convicted of criminal destruction for spray painting racial epithets on a Northfield office building a couple of weeks after defacing the synagogue. > > (_Chicago Sun-Times_, November 17, 2000, p. 20) There were other examples, but they were all in the same vein. I didn’t find any examples where anyone was convicted for placing a swastika on their own property. I’d be interested to know whether such action could, in fact, be prosecuted as a hate crime if a case could be made that its intention was to threaten, harrass, or intimidate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434.md?page=14)