# For fuck's sake, the flag burning amendment AGAIN?! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 22, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434 "2005-06-22T20:45:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/261 "2005-06-24T15:51:31Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I tried looking up “swastika” and “hate crime” and “guilty” on my Lexis/Nexis account, just to see what sort of connection there might be. The results tended to show that those charged and convicted with hate crimes for displaying swastikas had generally painted those symbols on someone else’s property out of a desire to intimidate and threaten. > > Here are some examples from the stories i found. I can’t give links, because Lexis/Nexis requires a subscription.andand andThere were other examples, but they were all in the same vein. I didn’t find any examples where anyone was convicted for placing a swastika on their own property. And on that I agree. The “hate” part is added on to a pre-existing crime, not inherent in the swastika itself, as it now is in the burning cross. > [@](#): > > I’d be interested to know whether such action could, in fact, be prosecuted as a hate crime if a case could be made that its intention was to threaten, harrass, or intimidate. IN Germany, display of a NAZI symbol is, IIRC, a crime. But not in the US of A. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/262 "2005-06-24T15:56:52Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I’d be interested to know whether such action could, in fact, be prosecuted as a hate crime if a case could be made that its intention was to threaten, harrass, or intimidate. I think under _Virgina v Black_ it probably could be. It would however be harder to show the intimidation requirement. That’s not to say that the Swastika is not equally as symbolic of evil (if not more so) as a cross burning, but I think a couple of factors would weigh against the analysis in _Black_. First, a cross burning is immediate, and the message is 'We are here, and we are ready to deal with you now." While flying a flag also indicates presence, I don’t see the court seeing it as having the same immediacy as a cross burning, which would tend to happen at the end of a gathering. Similarly, I don’t think display of a picture of a burning cross, or a video tape of it would be seen as intimidatory in the same way. Secondly, and linked, a burning cross is a rarer sign, and so the intimidation aspect might be seen as greater. It just isn’t possible to walk around with an actual burning cross on a t-shirt, as way too many idiots do with swastikas. So, I think the law could pass muster under the existing precedent (precedent I don’t think is particularly good law, for what it is worth). I am not aware of any such laws existing, which is kind of what I was asking for. Even if the law did exist, it would be much harder to gain a conviction than for cross burning. I suppose the paradigm would be of a Neo-Nazi group buying property opposite a synagogue for the sole purpose of a display of Swastikas. I have a horrible feeling I am missing something from the analysis here, and it has been a long time since I read _Black_ but that is what I can think of off the top of my head. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/263 "2005-06-24T16:02:28Z")
Not that agree with making cross burning illegal, but doesn’t the argument rest on the specific nature of that act in this country, and it’s long standing tradition of being tied to violence ( and specifically lynching) against Blacks? Nazi symbolism in the US does not have that same history, even it has an even worse history in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/264 "2005-06-24T16:08:30Z")
I think so, though I don’t think that would exclude ‘foreign’ intimidation, if it was extreme enough, just would make the proof a lot harder. Certainly if the rationale is limited only to cross burning it is an even worse decision. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/265 "2005-06-24T16:45:05Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Guinastasia, I feel the way you do, including about the fact he hasn’t responded to my post. However, please remember he confessed to having some thinking to do, Sorry ScottPlaid that I didn’t reply directly to you. No offense intended. The exchange amongst revtim, JohnMace, Diogenes and myself covered the topic rather thoroughly. If you followed it you probably noted that I had been re-examining my stance on this issue and have come to the conclusion that I was wrong and am now against the amendment. Even though this is the pit, I don’t take kindly to foolish insults and usually reply in kind or simply ignore. If I make a horrible leap in logic and get called on it, I usually take my lumps and listen and am open to persuasion. Case in point: this thread, I have been persuaded. But if someone calls me moron, dumbass, etc. because they disagree with my opinion, well, we all knew jerks like that in high school or sadly even college, and there’s no avoiding them. They really don’t deserve one’s time. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/266 "2005-06-24T16:49:39Z")
> [@BwanaBob](#): > > Sorry ScottPlaid that I didn’t reply directly to you. No offense intended. The exchange amongst revtim, JohnMace, Diogenes and myself covered the topic > rather thoroughly. meh. I thought what I was saying put a slighly diffrent spin on the issue, but that’s up for debate. I was just hoping to see if you follweed my logic, and I am still guessing. Well, you came to the right conclusion anyway, which is that the situation is diffrent from what you thought it was at first glance. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/267 "2005-06-24T16:58:21Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > No, I am pretty sure that’s you. 😛 :rolleyes: Go fuck yourself, asswhipe. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/268 "2005-06-24T17:55:54Z")
**BwanaBob** , I’m pleased you have re-evaluated your position. That takes a great open-mindedness than I think most people lack. I salute you! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/269 "2005-06-24T17:58:32Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Nazi symbolism in the US does not have that same history, even it has an even worse history in Europe. Really? How do you think US Jews feel about Nazi symbolism? Is their fear and revulsion not justified, just because the Holocaust happened in Europe? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/270 "2005-06-24T18:06:08Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > **BwanaBob** , I’m pleased you have re-evaluated your position. That takes a great open-mindedness than I think most people lack. I salute you! What he said. Sorry about calling you a moron. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/271 "2005-06-24T18:09:00Z")
Hmmm, let’s see now, DexOnline usually pretty good…Ah! Here we go!..a listing for “Fatted Calfs 'R Us”! Just the ticket! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/272 "2005-06-24T18:50:08Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Really? How do you think US Jews feel about Nazi symbolism? Is their fear and revulsion not justified, just because the Holocaust happened in Europe? I’m sure they feel horrified. But that doesn’t make displaying Nazi symbols illegal, nor should it. Are you arguing that it should? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/273 "2005-06-24T20:31:39Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I’m sure they feel horrified. But that doesn’t make displaying Nazi symbols illegal, nor should it. Are you arguing that it should? I am arguing that it is false to suggest that American Jews are less horrified than European Jews, which is what your statement implied. Do you want to rephrase that? ---
**Author:** ![Rodd\_Hill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3ab097/32.png) [@Rodd\_Hill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodd_Hill)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/274 "2005-06-24T20:36:07Z")
People, people… can’t you see that your fine, upstanding wise Representatives only have what’s best for you and your children at heart? This is simply a health and safety issue! Do you have any idea how dangerous all those burning nylon molecules can be for little lungs? The carcinogens given off? Really, It’s for the best. And it’s kevlar helmets off to George Bush on this one, by the way; it’s a masterstroke of international Green diplomacy. What, you don’t see it? This is 'ol George’s way of taking the first little baby step towards getting the US of A online with the Kyoto Protocols, folks! Got to start cutting back on those hydocarbon emissions somewhere–and how better than with a symbolic gesture like this. The man is nothing if not a communicaticor. Oh, and next time you’re in Canada, remember to visit Honest Rodd’s chain of Flammable Flag stands; legal Same-Sex Marriages performed, Cuban Cigars sold, and US currency accepted at par. Within sight of the 49th parallel, VISA and MasterCard accepted. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/275 "2005-06-24T20:38:36Z")
I recant my postion. Bush is on the right side for once. :dubious: And if you believe that, I have a bridge I would like to sell you. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2005, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/276 "2005-06-24T20:38:51Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Do you want to rephrase that? No I don’t, because the law wasn’t based on how horrified anyone feels. It was based on historical acts against Blacks in the US. I wouldn’t try to quantify the level of horror American Jews feel vs what European Jews feel. And to clarify one more time… I don’t agree with cross burning being made illegal, in and of itself. I’m explaining why it might make sense to some people to ban cross burning but not Nazi symbols, even though it doesn’t make sense to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434.md?page=13)