# For fuck's sake, the flag burning amendment AGAIN?! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 22, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434 "2005-06-22T20:45:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/101 "2005-06-23T01:33:14Z")
If we’re allowed to dispose of old, tattered flags by burning them, will the police investigate when we do so, to make SURE it was an old, ripped up flag? If my house burns down and I had a flag inside, will I be arrested? What happens if a battle flag is burned by enemy fire? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/102 "2005-06-23T01:42:00Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Here is how I understood **John Mace** ’s statement, “You really are a glutton for punishment, aren’t you?” I (Scott) feel that, unlike many of your past statements, “That summarizes everything that is wrong with the conservative right” is correct, and quite supportable. However, John either feels it is not supportable, but also feels his statement should be taken lightly, or some other thing, I can’t tell what. I don’t know, but I notice that \*\* Liberal \*\* managed to attack/demean both the conservatives and the leftists in the same sentence. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/103 "2005-06-23T01:47:14Z")
It always seemed to me that american people weren’t patriotic enough and that patriotism really needed to be forced down their throat… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/104 "2005-06-23T01:55:10Z")
> [@Robot Arm](#): > > If this amendment passes; and if Congress then passes a law to prohibit flag burning; and if that law is then challenged and struck down as unconstitutionally vague, the shouts of “activist judges” will be so loud you could hear them on the moon. I hope that’s not true. There may well be every reason in the world to strike a flag-burning statute down as unconstitutionally vague, or for overbreadth. It all depends on what the law actually says. Virginia’s law prohibits burning the flag, but exempts: > [@](#): > > any act permitted by the statutes of the United States or by the laws of this Commonwealth, or by the United States armed forces regulations, nor shall it apply to any printed or written document or production, stationery, ornament, picture or jewelry whereon shall be depicted such flag, standard, color, ensign or shield, with no design or words thereon and disconnected with any advertisement. Just as an example of how laws might be worded. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/105 "2005-06-23T01:59:14Z")
It still doesn’t say what DOES constitute a flag. That’s great that it exempts flags on clothing but can I burn a flag with 51 stars or can’t I? ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/106 "2005-06-23T02:04:19Z")
> [@jkusters](#): > > So… If I bake a cake in the shape of a U.S. flag, decorate it just like the U.S. flag… … what if you leave the cake in the oven too long, and it… you know… _burns_?! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/107 "2005-06-23T02:11:29Z")
Where might I purchase a flame thrower with which to ignite this glorious symbol of freedom. Practically everyone has made the points I thought of, but I am here to say thank you to Jesse Jackson, Jr for voting NO on this one. Kinda (but not really) makes up for his support on Terri’s Law. Somebody said something about jingoistic, simplistic, magical thinking. bingo–I think alot of Americans think this way. Seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/108 "2005-06-23T02:17:27Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > It was the first flag on the moon, it will be the first flag on mars, Not to stray too far off-topic, but… the first flag on the moon was actually that of the USSR, and was carried to the surface by the Luna 2 probe in 1959. Luna 2 was in fact designed to spread Soviet emblems across the moon’s surface upon impact. The Soviet flag was _also_ the first on Mars, having arrived in 1971 aboard their Mars 3 probe. Of course, one could reasonably argue that the mere presence of a Soviet flag on the moon is not really in the same category with the astronauts who actually traveled to the moon to plant the American flag. Or, in other words, that the symbol itself isn’t nearly as important as the actions performed on its behalf. That’s what I believe, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/109 "2005-06-23T02:25:42Z")
Of course **Terrifel** is correct, and I should have said “The first flag carried to the moon, and will be the first flag carried to Mars by humans, by Americans.” ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/110 "2005-06-23T02:45:31Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Where might I purchase a flame thrower with which to ignite this glorious symbol of freedom. > [@UncleRojelio](#): > > [Does this help?](http://www.transbuddha.com/index.php/buddha/comments/how-to-build-a-homemade-flamethrower/) from an old thread of mine. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/111 "2005-06-23T02:50:07Z")
jeebus. **Scott** There is much strangeness among us. Hey, I get misty eyed at the sight of the flag against a blue sky–but come ON! I get misty eyed for what it represents, not the thing itself. Jeesh. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/112 "2005-06-23T02:51:22Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > jeebus. **Scott** > > There is much strangeness among us. What? Flames are just plain cool. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/113 "2005-06-23T03:08:57Z")
This amendment is nothing less than a loyalty oath the Tightie Righties drag out every two years, just so they can use it against their Lib’rul oppenents in the Congressional election. Weak willed Democrats in red states or districts that are contested are too scared to vote against it, lest they be painted as “unpatriotic” during the campaign. This is a political strategy, not born out of regard for the flag, but a cynical attempt to gain an advantage by portraying their opponents as unamerican. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/114 "2005-06-23T03:35:16Z")
Can anybody find how the New York delegation voted? That article stops at the M’s. I already know Hillary didn’t. 😃 I’m just old enough to have seen flags burned by people in pretty much every damn country in the world, under the adminstrations of seven presidents of quite different political stripes, and to me, like it is to **Mr. Moto** and others, it’s a trite gesture that is unlikely to move me to your side. I’ve also seen this amendment mentioned under Democratic administrations too, so I can’t pin this one entirely on the Repubs either. I bet all Presidents just want the thing to go away. But outlawed? Sheesh. That’s missing the whole point. Besides, if they do this they may limit other forms of political expression–like me flipping the bird to the shrill idiots who choose this form of political expression. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/115 "2005-06-23T03:44:48Z")
> [@SolGrundy](#): > > If we’re keeping out mind on what the real issue is, does that mean you’re giving us permission to ignore your implications about **Guinistasia** ’s lack of patriotism? I didn’t say **Guinastasia** had any lack of patriotism. Indeed, I took pains to say that the impression I had of her was that she was a patriot. I was simply making a point that, regardless of the amendment, I didn’t think it was a good idea to go around burning flags. Just my opinion, but I wanted to share it. If anyone else thought I was slamming **Guinastasia** , I hope I have corrected this impression. Honestly, though, I think you just took this post the wrong way, **SolGrundy**. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/116 "2005-06-23T03:50:49Z")
The Simpsons “Amendment Song” by Alf Clausen and John Schwartzelder > [@](#): > > **Boy** : Say, who left all this garbage on the steps of Congress? > > **Amendment-to-be** : > > I’m not garbage. > I’m an amendment to be. > Yes, an amendment to be. > And I’m hoping that they’ll ratify me. > > There’s a lot of flag burners > Who have got too much freedom. > I want to make it legal for policemen to beat 'em. > 'Cause there’s limits to our liberties. > 'Least I hope and pray that there are. > 'Cause those liberal freaks go too far. > > **Boy** : But why can’t we just make a lawagainst flag burning? > > **Amendment-to-be** : Because that law would be unconstitutional. But if we changethe Constitution… > > **Boy** : Then we could make all sorts of crazy laws. > > **Amendment-to-be** : Now you’re catching on. ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/117 "2005-06-23T03:59:21Z")
I once saw someone who was a Vietnam-era protestor go completely ballistic about flag burning amendments. You see, when she was out there burning the flag, it was because the actions that she was protesting had, in her eyes, desecrated it so badly that it was not fit for flying. As a form of protest, it makes _no sense_ without the context of the Flag Code. She had a lot of very harsh words for the people who were ignorant of that (and was positively incandescent about those who cultivated that ignorance for purposes of making political hay). Personally, I consider this amendment to be one of the most profound desecrations of the flag that I have ever heard of. Of course, the people who get irrational and histrionic and OMGWTFBBQTheFLAG!!!1! about it have created the impression that morons can go out there and burn a flag to get attention by dissociating the act from its fundamentally patriotic resonances. I find this unforgivable. But I have an irrational attachment to the Flag Code. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/118 "2005-06-23T05:07:01Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > Can this actually pass? Are things that fucking stupid at this point? Well, that’s an interesting question. Although the bill passed in the House, it actually passed by the smallest margin ever. When this particular issue came up two years ago, the House approved it 300-125. This time, the vote was 286-130. The problem, though, is that the Senate is more firmly in the hands of the Republicans than it was last time, so many people are predicting a very tight vote. Remember, though, that a simple majority is not enough; a constitutional amendment needs a two thirds majority in the House and Senate. The thing is, though, that of the 100 senators currently on Capitol Hill, fully 65 have voted for the amendment at one time or another in the past, or have indicated that they will vote for it on this occasion. It should be interesting to see the final tally. I really hope it does get stopped in the Senate, because i’m afraid i don’t currently have enough faith in the American people and their state representatives to stop it when it comes up for ratification in each state. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/119 "2005-06-23T05:19:29Z")
> [@villa](#): > > The overwhelming majority of states have a resolutions on the record against flag burning. [To date, 49 state legislatures have passed resolutions supporting congressional efforts to amend the U.S. Constitution to allow laws protecting the flag.](http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=13371&printerfriendly=1) Including California, by the way. This will go through on a local level faster than you can imagine. From what I have read, most opponents think the sole chance of blocking it is in the Senate, and they aren’t too confident of that this time. Interesting. I didn’t know that. You may well have a point, but I kind of find it hard to believe that our legislature, which is a few votes away from approving gay marriage at this point, would roll over on this amendment. As your cite notes, most of these state laws date back to the mid 60s. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2005, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434/120 "2005-06-23T05:41:45Z")
We godless Noo Yawkas probably wouldn’t pass it either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-fucks-sake-the-flag-burning-amendment-again/309434.md?page=7)