# For metro-NYC Dopers: How did you like Giuliani pre 9-11? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2007, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264 "2007-06-16T16:55:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Wallet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e99b99/32.png) [@Wallet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallet)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/41 "2007-06-20T04:49:34Z")
[QUOTE=Zebra] Rudy, suggested, that he be allowed to stay mayor for longer than his term so that he could be the one to deal with extended 9/11 issues. He suggested that the city charter be ignored, that the election results be ignored, so that he could keep power. [/QUOTE] I’ve never asked this before, but cite? Perhaps my memory is skewed - in the traumatic weeks following 9/11 many people pushed for Guiliani to stay in his post for a few extra months, but IIRC he said the democratic process must carry on. Am I remembering this incorrectly? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/42 "2007-06-20T05:07:13Z")
Zebra’s right. I remember Guiliani floating the idea that the election might be “postponed” and he might stay on “temporarily” until the crisis was over. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/43 "2007-06-20T05:18:07Z")
New York Times, Sept. 24, 2001, p. A21: > [@](#): > > **Giuliani May Try to Keep Job After Term Ends in December** > > Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani, reconsidering his position that the mayoral election should go on without him, believes that New Yorkers should be able to decide who leads the city out of these troubled times, even if it includes an extension of his term, people close to the mayor said last night. > > While Mr. Giuliani is barred from serving another consecutive term under the city’s term limits law, he has rebuffed questions about his view of the matter in recent days.… > > Since the Sept. 11 attack, many New Yorkers have called for extending the mayor’s term for at least six months, if not four more full years, in spite of the law. Such an extension would require the approval of the State Legislature and the City Council, and neither group has been amenable to the idea in the past week. ---
**Author:** ![dart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7bcc69/32.png) [@dart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dart)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/44 "2007-06-20T05:34:11Z")
He cleaned up Times Sq., so if porn’s not your thing, hooray I guess. He also took a firm stance against the Brooklyn Museum and the NEA when it came down to artistic freedom vs. Religious Purity. He had a rep for shipping bums to Jersey to get rid of them, but as a high-schooler at the time who doesn’t feel like doing the pertinent research right now, all I have to offer on that one is hearsay. His presidential campaign is very funny. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/45 "2007-06-20T18:55:47Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] As a friend of mine said, “Giuliani thinks he’s Batman, he became obsessed with saving Gotham, and then as he got older he starting going batshit crazy.” [/QUOTE] This is a great analysis of Giuliani (and I think I may steal it). In his first term, he really was Batman, cleaning up some major problems caused by decades of entrenched Democratic leadership beholden to various pressure groups. The crime reduction efforts were continuations of programs from the Dinkins administration and the Times Square revitalization was largely driven by state agencies (and dated from well before he was in office), but he drove and encouraged these programs. It was really a brilliant effort, and to the extent he stepped on civil liberties or tried to control information flow, it didn’t seem too bad because of the progress he was making. One particularly troubling incident was his firing of Police Commissioner Bill Bratton for the apparent reason that he was taking too much of the spotlight on the crime reduction efforts away from Giuliani. Personally, he was like Batman, too, available 24-7 to come rushing in whenever and wherever needed. It seemed like he’d be there whenever a cop got into a fender bender or a fireman coughed three times after leaving a burning building. (In contrast, Bloomberg leaves town for the weekend and doesn’t tell the media where he is going, often taking his private jet to his house in Bermuda. This caused the media some frustration when he wasn’t immediately available for a comment on every little thing that happened in the City, but they got over it.) By the end of his first term, he had defeated all of the real villians. But what is Batman to do if the Joker, the Penguin and their ilk is gone? He goes racing around Gotham pouncing on whatever infractions caught his eye. That guy didn’t clean up after his poodle – race there in the Batmobile, tie him up and deposit him on the Commissioner’s desk for punishment. In his second term, he repeatedly turned his focus on little things that offended him but were innocuous to most New Yorkers, Ferrets, newstands, taxis, the exhibits at the Brooklyn Museum to name a few. When something offended him, he would go against it in the most heavy-handed way possible – causing his administration to be repeatedly held in violation of the First Amendment and other civil rights. It also became apparent that he was managing the City’s finances by using one-off revenue events and other shady accounting to put off necessary tax increases until his successor’s term (something which Bloomberg tackled in a very straightforward manner, earning initial enmity but eventual support). What Giuliani’s tenure as Mayor teaches me is that were he elected President, he would continue (or even increase) the Bush Administration’s secretive and authoritarian tendencies. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2007, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/46 "2007-06-20T21:00:11Z")
In addition to what other posters seem to have read that’s _already posted_ throughout this entire thread, don’t forget this [lawsuit](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A04EFDF173AF931A35757C0A96E958260) that had to be initiated against Giuliani by _New York’s Independent Budget Office_ to get basic information regarding the City’s budget. “Mayor Giuliani refused to comment directly on the lawsuit, but he described the plaintiffs as ‘the most partisan group of Democrats, who are the most left-wing.’” A control freak, if ever there was one. I think he is a seriously flawed leader, and find this hard to reconcile with his basically decent position concerning gays rights issues. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/47 "2007-06-21T00:39:42Z")
[QUOTE=Walloon] New York Times, Sept. 24, 2001, p. A21: [/QUOTE] Thanks ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/48 "2007-06-21T06:42:33Z")
[QUOTE=Billdo] It also became apparent that he was managing the City’s finances by using one-off revenue events and other shady accounting to put off necessary tax increases until his successor’s term (something which Bloomberg tackled in a very straightforward manner, earning initial enmity but eventual support). [/QUOTE] Giuliani also [sold](http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~garten/Buch/Stoneenglisch.htm) off plenty of city-owned property to temporarily boost revenues at the expense of city gardens, parks, and recreational areas. [Here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coney_Island) is another article about Coney Island which states the following: > [@](#): > > In the mid '80s, businessman Horace Bullard approached the city to allow him to rebuild Steeplechase Park. He had already bought several acres of property just East of the Steeplechase Park site including the property with a large coaster called The Thunderbolt as well as property west of Abe Stark rink. His plans called for the combination of his property as well as the Steeplechase property and the unused property on the Abe Stark site as one massive multimillion-dollar theme park based on the original. The city agreed, and in 1986 the state legislature approved the project. However, several bureaucrats held up the project for another two years while the NYC Planning Commission compiled an environmental impact report. In 1987, state senator Thomas Bartosiewics attempted to block Bullard from building on the Steeplechase site. Bartosiewics was part of a group called The Brooklyn Sports Foundation who had promised another theme park developer, Sportsplex, the right to build on the site. Construction was held up for another four years as Bullard and Sportsplex fought over the site. > > In 1994, Rudy Giuliani took office as mayor of New York and officially killed the deal with Bullard. Giuliani claimed he wanted to build Sportsplex, provided it include a stadium for a minor-league team owned by the Mets. But when Giuliani ordered the stadium to be built first, Sportsplex accused the city of planning to build a parking lot on the property earmarked for the Sportsplex construction. Even though Giuliani publicly denied this and promised Sportsplex could begin construction the moment the stadium was finished, as soon as the stadium was completed, Giuliani killed the Sportsplex deal and had the parking lot built. The Mets decided the minor league team would be called The Brooklyn Cyclones and sold the naming rights to the stadium to Keyspan Energy. Executives from Keyspan complained that the stadium’s line of view from the rest of Coney Island amusement area was blocked by the now derelict Thunderbolt coaster and considered not going through with the deal. Bullard, now no longer rebuilding Steeplechase Park, had wanted to restore the coaster as part of a scaled-down amusement park. The following month, Giuliani ordered an early-morning raid on the Thunderbolt, claiming that the coaster was in immediate danger of collapse and ordering it bulldozed. The structure that was supposed to be near collapse took many days to be torn down. No connection between the Mets organization and the demolition has ever been proven, but many accuse Giuliani of tearing it down at the Mets’ request. Simply put, Giuliani is a bully and a thug who has not problem using the power of gov’t to shakedown people who disagree with him. Someone so vindictive would make an awful president. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/49 "2007-06-21T16:51:01Z")
Rudy has the issue, forgivable in a mayor, of thinking his personal prejudices are the only true and proper way for the world to work. He has no room in his mind for alternate perspectives. If something goes against his personal morals, it _has_ to be illegal. He’s an attack dog. He’d make a great Attorney General, a lousy President. He cleaned up the fish market, don’t forget. Really broke the Mob, over the years. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/50 "2007-06-21T17:26:05Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] He’d make a great Attorney General, a lousy President. [/QUOTE] Actually, Rudy as AG might even scare me more than him as President. I can really see him as engaging in vindictive prosecution and disregard for civil rights, perhaps even more than the current AG. When he was US Attorney the common complaint was that he made big showy arrests, but was weak at carrying things through to conviction. He also focused on high-profile areas like securities fraud and the mafia, to the arguable neglect of the more bread and butter areas of federal prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/51 "2007-06-21T18:39:50Z")
Yes, but he’d be working at the directive, hopefully, of a good President. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/52 "2007-06-21T19:55:11Z")
[QUOTE=Billdo] Actually, Rudy as AG might even scare me more than him as President. I can really see him as engaging in vindictive prosecution and disregard for civil rights, perhaps even more than the current AG. When he was US Attorney the common complaint was that he made big showy arrests, but was weak at carrying things through to conviction. He also focused on high-profile areas like securities fraud and the mafia, to the arguable neglect of the more bread and butter areas of federal prosecution. [/QUOTE] Also partially in response to **E-Sabbath**. Just an observation here: As a New Yorker, I’ve always wondered about those shows of going after the mob. Yes, publicly there _seems_ to have been some “progress,” but who really knows how many of those types of charges were brought, trials held and convictions obtained. I’m not even trying to suggest he was mobbed up, but could there have been some behind-the-scene deals made, i.e., “I’ll be very public about going after you over here and you quietly continue to operate over there.” P.S. When you say he “broke the mob, re: the fish market.” The fish market only moved to the Bronx within the last year. To me, that implies the Mob wasn’t bested during the Giuliani years because they were the ones resisting closing the Fulton Fish market and moving it. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2007, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/53 "2007-06-21T23:26:23Z")
> **[Mafia Commission Trial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_Commission_Trial)** > > The Mafia Commission Trial (in full, United States v. Anthony Salerno, et al) was a criminal trial before the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York in New York City, United States, that lasted from February 25, 1985, until November 19, 1986. Using evidence obtained by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, 11 organized crime figures, including the heads of New York City's "Five Families", were indicted by United States Attorney Rudolph Giuliani under the Racketeer In Rudy, over many years, broke the Mob. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/54 "2007-06-22T03:13:37Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] > **[Mafia Commission Trial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_Commission_Trial)** > > The Mafia Commission Trial (in full, United States v. Anthony Salerno, et al) was a criminal trial before the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York in New York City, New York, that lasted from February 25, 1985, until November 19, 1986. Using evidence obtained by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, 11 organized crime figures, including the heads of New York City's "Five Families", were indicted by United States Attorney Rudolph Giuliani under the Racketeer Influen Rudy, over many years, broke the Mob. [/QUOTE] You and I are probably going to continue to disagree on this and that’s okay. While that wiki entry you graciously (thanks, it helps) supplied enumerates many indictments and convictions that Guiliani spearheaded, and specifically states, overall, they helped make his career, nowhere does it say he broke the mob. As a matter of fact, two mobsters were murdered mob-style in the New York area just in the last couple of weeks, which indicates to me (i) there are still a few around, and (ii) there’s \*enough \* of a mob still around for something to be worthwhile enough to gun down rivals. ---
**Author:** ![Hostile\_Dialect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e495f1/32.png) [@Hostile\_Dialect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hostile_Dialect)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/55 "2007-06-22T05:15:00Z")
Not to mention how many mob crimes probably “go unreported” on a daily basis. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/56 "2007-06-22T09:52:59Z")
While true, the Mob still exists, it’s a shadow of what it used to be. It had a great firm hand over many city services, and over much of the real estate of NY. It’s like the USSR. Russia still exists, but… it’s not what it was. It’s hard to tell the difference if you weren’t there. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/57 "2007-06-22T12:54:45Z")
I have to side with **E-Sabbath** on this. The mob was broken, not eradicated. It’s a shadow of its former self. You’ll never truly get rid of it, but it’s stranglehold over many, many areas has been diminished. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/58 "2007-06-22T13:56:55Z")
[QUOTE=D\_Odds] I have to side with **E-Sabbath** on this. The mob was broken, not eradicated. It’s a shadow of its former self. You’ll never truly get rid of it, but it’s stranglehold over many, many areas has been diminished. [/QUOTE] This statement I can agree with and if **E-Sabbath** \* has said diminished, crimped the style of, or even hobbled and not broken (i.e., does not work anymore), I would have agreed also. Giuliani did a lot of good (though fanatical) work as a federal prosecutor; however, neither he and nor RICO and the Predicates will ever totally eradicate the Mob – it’s just too lucrative. Besides, you get to wear a pinkie ring, order gabba goo regularly and it’s de rigueur to have a goomar. - He has amended his language to that effect now. I must mention, I live in Brooklyn and know there’s a not insignificant mob presence still. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/59 "2007-06-22T14:41:35Z")
[QUOTE=5-4-Fighting] I must mention, I live in Brooklyn and know there’s a not insignificant mob presence still. [/QUOTE] I’m just north of Ozone Park and Howard Beach, another place with low-life mob activity. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2007, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264/60 "2007-06-22T16:13:55Z")
Broke: Broke the grip of. Not ‘eradicated’, wrong meaning. Broke does not mean ‘does not work any more.’ It means ‘broke free of.’ Still there, but not what it was. Again, the USSR was broken, but Russia and the other countries still exist. We still have to worry about Putin… but not as much as we did before. 1. To decrease sharply in value or quantity: Stock prices broke when the firm suddenly announced layoffs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-metro-nyc-dopers-how-did-you-like-giuliani-pre-9-11/408264.md?page=2)