# For Obama Supporters: Should Florida... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 6, 2008, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261 "2008-03-06T00:29:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/41 "2008-03-06T07:31:41Z")
[QUOTE=VarlosZ] That said, I still think it’s a **really** stupid idea. It makes it seem like the Democrats have no idea what they’re doing. It paints the DNC as impotent, and opens the door to an orgy of front-loaded primaries. [/quote] The DNC doesn’t know what its doing. What 's wrong with an orgy of front loaded primaries. doesn’t seem to be any problem for the Republicans. And something else I just learned from **Diogenes**. The state of Florida shelled out 25 million dollars to help there people select delegates for Denver. Didn’t cost the DNC anything. Since when does the person who pays the piper not get to call the tune? Since when does a private organization tell a state how to spend there money? > [@](#): > > Should Obama wind up losing the nomination, it gives him grounds to claim (quite reasonably) that Clinton’s win was illegitimate, the result of back-room machinations by the party elite to get their preferred candidate, even if it means breaking the agreed-upon rules. Clinton doesn’t need Florida to win. She can win with super delegates/backroom machinations which the party allowed for the last time they revised convention delegate selection > [@](#): > > Granted, they probably shouldn’t have barred the Florida and Michigan delegates in the first place, but can you guys not see how reversing that strategy now would be unjust? Two wrongs don’t make a right. Reversing their illegitimate call would be admitting they made a mistake. There’s nothing wrong with admitting a mistake. To be fair, the DNC should pay for their mistake, put up the 25 million to hold Florida’s redo primary and welcome Florida and Michigan back into the convention. > [@](#): > > A sports analogy – you can skip it, but I am curious to get a some reactions by people in favor of a do-over: Your football team is winning a playoff game by 10 points going into the 4th Quarter against a heavy favorite – at this point, the shorter the game, the more chance your team has to win. > > Before the start of the quarter, however, the commissioner comes onto the field and declares that he’s decided that halftime is boring and should be replaced by a 5th “quarter” . . . and that, furthermore, the two teams are now going to go back and _play_ that extra period before the start of the 4th Quarter. He says he’s not making this decision to help the team that’s trailing, that that’s merely incidental – he just wants make the football game better for everyone. Even if you think he might be telling the truth, are you not outraged? Why should that upset you if re-doing Florida and Michigan does not? This anology is so out in left field that I can’t even get a handle on it to respond. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/42 "2008-03-06T07:56:49Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Yes, Fla knew it. \*Fla did it on purpose as the GOP runs the Fla legislature. \* :eek: [/quote] As has been pointed out to you on other threads, the Florida democrats unanimously supported this. Did the GOP force them to go along with it? > [@](#): > > It’s a brilliant plan that seems to be working. The Obama-ites seem to be more concerned with winning the Nomination than the Election. :rolleyes: That’s an interesting thought - that this is automatically reprehensible. In a system of blind party allegiance, I can see why you think that way. But the idea to me that a particular individual winning the election is important rather just anyone who happens to be from the same party doesn’t strike me as illogical. They may not feel that HRC would make a good president. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/43 "2008-03-06T10:48:56Z")
While I regret what has happened to MI and FL, I agree with others that it would be worse to change the rules in the middle of the game. If they leave MI and FL out, then it’s an enforcement of an agreed-upon rule and shows that the party sticks to its guns; if they have a do-over, it’s flip-flopping and the Republicans can tell America that if the Democrats can’t even decide on how to run a fair primary, why should they be running the country? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/44 "2008-03-06T11:46:04Z")
The future, after FL/MI get a do-over: **DNC Bigwig:** So, have you explained to Tennsyltucky that they can’t move the 2012 primary back to October 2011? **DNC Minion:** Yeah, but all they did was reschedule it to the first of the month. **DNC Bigwig:** The first of the month? **DNC Minion:** Yeah. At least, that’s what I think the hand gesture from the state party chief means… ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/45 "2008-03-06T12:14:51Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] But so? Why does this mean that _the people_ of the State don’t get their votes counted? _The people_ didn’t agree to this.\*\* [/QUOTE] Agreed. In Michigan, there was a fair amount of resistance to this idea in spite of the higher ups insisting that it was a great idea. :rolleyes: Now essentially the people are being punished by having their votes discounted. That really doesn’t sit right with me. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/46 "2008-03-06T12:28:57Z")
Settled: Howard Dean said on National Television this morning in a resounding voice - **No** , the FL and MI delegates will NOT be sat under the current circumstances. They will get an appeal to the committee in **JULY**. That’s it. Watch it on GMA. The live feed will be posted on their website in a few minutes. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/47 "2008-03-06T12:31:39Z")
[QUOTE=appleciders] Michigan is similar to Ohio, isn’t it\*? [/QUOTE] Them’s fightin’ words! One is the jewel of the Great Lakes, the other is the armpit of America where the only good thing that comes out of it is I-75 into Michigan. Electorally, they are somewhat similar. NAFTA is a major issue in both states. Michigan is I think a touch more liberal than Ohio and has been a much more reliable Democratic presidential state than our southern neighbors. I was surprised to see the concern about a do-over. The DNC said you can’t schedule a primary before Super Tuesday and have it count without permission. Thus, in the eyes of the DNC, it never officially happened because it wasn’t sanctioned. It really wouldn’t be a do-over, it would be voting a contested election for the first time. Clinton supporters, note this. In the [Michigan primary,](http://miboecfr.nictusa.com/election/results/08PPR/08PPRall.html) , the vote in Wayne County (Detroit area) was 81,649 for Hillary, 75,227 for uncommitted. In Washtenaw County (Ann Arbor) it was 12,282 for Hillary, 12,992 for uncommitted. Don’t give us any crap about how she “won” the state when she barely beat uncommitted in the largest county and lost to uncommitted in another significant county. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/48 "2008-03-06T12:50:47Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] Them’s fightin’ words! One is the jewel of the Great Lakes, the other is the armpit of America where the only good thing that comes out of it is I-75 into Michigan. Electorally, they are somewhat similar. NAFTA is a major issue in both states. Michigan is I think a touch more liberal than Ohio and has been a much more reliable Democratic presidential state than our southern neighbors. I was surprised to see the concern about a do-over. The DNC said you can’t schedule a primary before Super Tuesday and have it count without permission. Thus, in the eyes of the DNC, it never officially happened because it wasn’t sanctioned. It really wouldn’t be a do-over, it would be voting a contested election for the first time. Clinton supporters, note this. In the [Michigan primary,](http://miboecfr.nictusa.com/election/results/08PPR/08PPRall.html) , the vote in Wayne County (Detroit area) was 81,649 for Hillary, 75,227 for uncommitted. In Washtenaw County (Ann Arbor) it was 12,282 for Hillary, 12,992 for uncommitted. Don’t give us any crap about how she “won” the state when she barely beat uncommitted in the largest county and lost to uncommitted in another significant county. [/QUOTE] Them’s solid words **Bob**! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/49 "2008-03-06T12:57:25Z")
Anybody who thinks a do-over would satisfy anybody is fooling themselves. No matter what decision is made, people are going to find a reason to bitch about it. A do-over would just result in a slightly different group of people crying foul over a slightly different set of issues. It’s a bunch of lawyers fighting over huge stakes. There is absolutely no way in hell you could come up with any scenario that will make everyone happy and not leave someone with a legitimate gripe about being cheated. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/50 "2008-03-06T13:24:22Z")
[QUOTE=Harborwolf] Agreed. In Michigan, there was a fair amount of resistance to this idea in spite of the higher ups insisting that it was a great idea. :rolleyes: Now essentially the people are being punished by having their votes discounted. That really doesn’t sit right with me. [/QUOTE] I know that I’ve said this in another thread, but sorry to inform you - neither the American government nor any of the states are direct democracies. You vote in representatives and are bound by what they do on your behalf. Even if it is dumb-ass stupid and hurts you. If it is fair to have me bound by laws passed by Congress and punished for disobeying them, then it is fair to hold the voters of MI and FL responsible to the actions of their representatives as well. I have no problem with Florida and Michigan having DNC sanctioned votes that would count. What they had so far were not and were in effect very expensive public opinion polls. Nice but polls have been wrong so often this cycle. 🙂 I highly doubt it will happen. The states will balk at paying for primaries after they paid that much for the pubic opinion polls. Clinton’s camp will be deathly afraid of caucuses, which the state parties along with the DNC and maybe with a little from the states could afford to fund. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/51 "2008-03-06T13:33:45Z")
Just as a point of reference I offer up this quote from the [St Petersburg Times, Oct 7, 2007](http://www.sptimes.com/2007/10/07/State/Florida_faces_a_prima.shtml) > [@](#): > > For the DNC, the solution was simple: Florida Democrats would declare the Jan. 29 primary meaningless and instead hold an alternative election of delegates later on, like a series of caucuses across the state. But in the state of recounts and Katherine Harris, the idea of saying the Jan. 29 votes wouldn’t count was ludicrous to Democrats, especially in a state with no history of caucuses. This re-do idea is not something cooked up in the last month, it’s been around from Day 1, and both candidates should support it, if the funding can be found. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/52 "2008-03-06T13:41:51Z")
And a series of Caucuses is exactly what Clinton will want to avoid…And Obama would love. I say do it. But from the looks of what Howard Dean said this morning, It’s looking more grim for anything to be done. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/53 "2008-03-06T22:19:51Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] I know that I’ve said this in another thread, but sorry to inform you - neither the American government nor any of the states are direct democracies. You vote in representatives and are bound by what they do on your behalf. Even if it is dumb-ass stupid and hurts you. If it is fair to have me bound by laws passed by Congress and punished for disobeying them, then it is fair to hold the voters of MI and FL responsible to the actions of their representatives as well. [/quote] I agree. That’s why I think the primaries as they stand now shouldn’t count. I was replying to the idea that Michigan and Florida have had their chance and shouldn’t be allowed to redo their primaries if they wish. And I live in Michigan. Nearly everything our representatives do is dumb-ass stupid and hurts us. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2008, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/54 "2008-03-07T01:55:54Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Why not, **Sam**? What is so sacred about rules, agreed upon or not, that makes them immutable? What, exactly, makes this something that is “never done”? What cataclysm is threatened? [/QUOTE] From someone who so vocally defended the Supreme Court’s nullification of the Florida election rules, not so long ago as to be forgotten around these parts … > [@BobLibDem](#): > > Don’t give us any crap about how she “won” the state when she barely beat uncommitted in the largest county and lost to uncommitted in another significant county. So all those tens of thousands of people really did come out in the freezing weather to vote for “I don’t know and I don’t care”? :dubious: Or were those “uncommitted” votes, the bulk of them anyway, really intended for real candidates, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2008, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/55 "2008-03-07T04:26:17Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] From someone who so vocally defended the Supreme Court’s nullification of the Florida election rules, not so long ago as to be forgotten around these parts … [/QUOTE] If that’s how you remember it, then enjoy the Kool-aid. ---
**Author:** ![Paper\_Pusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9adbd/32.png) [@Paper\_Pusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paper_Pusher)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2008, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/56 "2008-03-07T05:15:48Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] Way back in January before there even was a Florida vote, Hillary [said](http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat?pid=276341) [/QUOTE] I believe she never said anything like that until she lost Iowa (and maybe South Carolina). ---
**Author:** ![Paper\_Pusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9adbd/32.png) [@Paper\_Pusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paper_Pusher)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2008, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/57 "2008-03-07T05:22:45Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] Reversing their illegitimate call would be admitting they made a mistake. There’s nothing wrong with admitting a mistake. To be fair, the DNC should pay for their mistake, put up the 25 million to hold Florida’s redo primary and welcome Florida and Michigan back into the convention. [/QUOTE] What would be fair is if Florida scheduled their primary after February 4th like 46 other states. I am pretty sure that California would have loved to have their primary first in the nation, same with New York and Texas but the DNC said “if you do that, then your votes won’t count.” So now Flroida and Michigan’s votes don’t count. Personally I support a do-over to seat half the delegates but if the state (or the state DNC) pays for it and admits that they were wrong, then I guess I don’t have a problem with full a full delegation from these states (I might support it more if the culprits wore duncecaps until the next election). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2008, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/58 "2008-03-07T10:50:49Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] If that’s how you remember it, then enjoy the Kool-aid. [/QUOTE] Pity the archives don’t exist anymore. :rolleyes: Or would you rather describe your own memories of your own views at the time, and how they have, um, so dramatically evolved since? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2008, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/59 "2008-03-07T12:42:34Z")
[QUOTE=Paper Pusher] What would be fair is if Florida scheduled their primary after February 4th like 46 other states. [/QUOTE] What would be fair is if the DNC didn’t have special rules for “special states”. As you said, four states held their contests before Feb. 4th, but only two were stripped of their delegates. Also, everyone keeps talking about the rules, about how everyone knew the rules that Michigan and Florida wouldn’t count, etc., but there was always the chance that they would. There could even be a floor vote at the convention to seat these delegates. Howard Dean isn’t the final arbiter on this. If a candidate took the chance of abandoning one of these primaries on the chance that they wouldn’t count, then he did so at his own peril. I also can’t believe that the GOP hasn’t pounced on this obvious irony here. In 2000, just because there wasn’t an arduous hand count of ballots from people who couldn’t be bothered to push a perforated piece of paper out of a ballot, this amounted to being “disenfranchised”. In 2007, when the DNC ignores the results of an ENTIRE PRIMARY in a WHOLE STATE, then it is the “rule of law”.. LOLOL ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2008, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261/60 "2008-03-07T13:11:39Z")
A primary is part of a party’s process to choose delegates that help decide upon the party’s candidate for office. If a state has a vote that they know is outside that process then they are not having a primary; they are having a public opinion poll. The fact that Michigan and Florida decided to run very expensive public opinion polls and have decided to _not_ run primaries this year is their problem. It’s a damn shame, but their choice. There is still time for them to pony up and run primaries or caucuses if they want. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-obama-supporters-should-florida/440261.md?page=4)