# For opponents of SSM, how do you react to seeing images/video of happy gay couples being married? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 10, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602 "2012-12-10T15:23:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/61 "2012-12-12T07:32:10Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > After ending a 3 1/2 year journey from separation to divorce today (yippee), I think you are all fucking nuts to want to get married. That is my sincerely held belief. I hate weddings and I probably never want to get married. But I’ve been looking at the pics from same sex weddings here in WA and feeling so warm and fuzzy. Turns out it’s only straight weddings I hate. When I start hating gay weddings too, I’ll know we’ve arrived. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/62 "2012-12-12T11:13:24Z")
I cannot wait until these weddings are no longer news. That would show that we have successfully expanded the definition of “normal” again. ---
**Author:** ![Pitchmeister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pitchmeister/32/3459_2.png) [@Pitchmeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pitchmeister)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/63 "2012-12-12T11:30:18Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > I cannot wait until these weddings are no longer news. That would show that we have successfully expanded the definition of “normal” again. In Germany, they haven’t been news for a very long time (granted, we didn’t have the divisive battle that is currently being fought in the US, it was hardly a controversial debate), so give it a couple of years at the most. That said, we’re not quite there yet, either, gay couples aren’t completely equal in all respects (hospital rights, tax breaks), so some work does remain. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/64 "2012-12-12T12:35:35Z")
The debate is going on right now in the UK. Rather bizarrely the issue at the moment is less about protecting same-sex marriage from the Church and more about [protecting the Church from same-sex marriage](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/church-of-england-banned-from-offering-samesex-marriages-but-all-other-religious-organisations-can-opt-in-for-gay-ceremonies-8405966.html). It’s going to happen, once the bishops unknot their knickers about the possibility of being forced to conduct them. Looks like 2014, but it’s going to happen. ETA: Also note that their opposition to SSM is [actually hurting the Church of England](http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/census-gays-and-a-very-bad-day-for-the-church-of-england-8406540.html) (and Wales). ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/65 "2012-12-12T14:34:52Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > It’s going to happen, once the bishops unknot their knickers about the possibility of being forced to conduct them. Looks like 2014, but it’s going to happen. It’ll happen even _if_ the bishops don’t unknot their knickers. 100 mostly tory MPs against SSM, in a house of 650 MPs. The Lords can delay it a bit, but they can’t block it. I just wish we could get on with it, I can’t bear the prospect of two more years of rantings from Ann Widdecombe. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/66 "2012-12-12T14:34:55Z")
> [@Glazer](#): > > If you have to convince yourself, do you really believe that other people should be unhappy so that you can be? Or are you trying to convince yourself because that is what you’ve been taught your supposed to think? Neither. If I have a belief and it goes unchallenged, it doesn’t requiere much more thought. If it is challenged I think “you sure, dude?” if yes, then I go to a deeper level of reasoning until I’m satisfied. Basically what everybody does. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I agree. I started the thread because of the hypothesis (that seems to be playing out, statistically speaking, as openly gay people, couples, and families are more and more common) that seeing gay couples act “normal” tends to soften opposition to gay marriage, and opposition to homosexuality in general. > > Also, I’m very curious what opponents of gay marriage (and related issues like gay adoption) want to do about existing couples and families. Do they want to take children away from gay couples, or just prevent gay couples from adopting in the future? Do they want to take away marriage benefits like hospital visitation and being next-of-kin (for couples who are already married)? > > It’s also my hope that seeing these couples and families looking like any other “normal” family makes it that much harder on an emotional level to want to take away their rights or break up their families. > > But I’m not interested, in this thread at least, in attacking anyone for their beliefs. Challenging them is fine, though. Take children away? No. I may think it is wrong, but it is/was legal. Prevent? Yes. I’m all for letting people assign visitation rights to whomever they want via a legal document or verbally if they can. Any rights they legally have? No. Break up legally formed unions? No. > [@Projammer](#): > > Except when it isn’t. > > Allow me to put this in context for our readers at home. > > segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever - George Wallace - 1963 > > You and those like you become less relevent with each passing year, being members of the group that wonders what happened. A slow process, but as implacable as an iceberg. Arrange your deck chairs while you can. Icebergs melt, doncha know? They are also slow and avoidable. Countries with horrible dictators have traffic lights. Does that fact invalidate traffic lights? Even if I am horribly wrong it is still silly to use the “you’re wrong and you’re gonna lose” argument. I don’t let my opponent define my arguments, you know, Debate 101. > [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Help me follow. Your opposition to same sex marriage doesn’t have an ick factor, but a wrong factor. That is, to use your own analogy, seeing two dudes happily getting married is akin to seeing two dudes happily smoking: they’re happy, which is fine, but they’re happy with doing something that is bad. But you don’t think smoking should be illegal, but you think same sex marriage should be? In what way are these two things different? Apparently a simple analogy is too much for many. I shall explain for the last time. The only two factors that \*\*for me \*\*in the analogy **I** chose for the reasons \*\*I \*\*decided are: 1. It is harmful. 2. It is enjoyed. All other factors, including the regressive nature of taxes on tobaco or cuban cigar bans, are irrelevant for me in the context of that analogy. All other ramificiations are moot points. You may dislike the analogy, but I chose it for the reasons I explained. Expanding it destroys my analogy because it wasn’t designed as the perfect comparison. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/67 "2012-12-12T14:47:55Z")
Excellent. Please, would you be able to tell us what is “harmful” in an official, legal recognition of couplehood (with the attendant inheritance, visitation, power of attourney, etc rights) for same sex couples as marriage is now generally reserved for opposite sex couples? “Smoking is harmful because it is recognized to cause cancer and other diseases; same-sex marriage is harmful because \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_.” Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/68 "2012-12-12T14:48:53Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > 1. It is harmful. > 2. It is enjoyed. > > All other factors, including the regressive nature of taxes on tobaco or cuban cigar bans, are irrelevant for me in the context of that analogy. All other ramificiations are moot points. You may dislike the analogy, but I chose it for the reasons I explained. Expanding it destroys my analogy because it wasn’t designed as the perfect comparison. Harmful in what way? To whom? How? ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/69 "2012-12-12T14:50:27Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > And yes homosexuality is still ‘unnatural’ because it doesn’t originate from the primary purpose of sexual relations which is reproduction, not ‘having a good time.’ > Unnatural = more icky. Erm no. Sex is way more than just about reproduction for primates, it can and is used for bonding or the unfortunately the opposite (rape to show dominance) for evidence of this please see studies on other primate societies like the Bonobo. If the Bonobo are doing it how more ‘natural’ do you need? To the OP I think it is great to see but hope in a few years it is out of the news because it is as accepted as inter-racial marriages are today. Regarding the recent UK moves I find it odd that they think gay couples are going to force churches to marry them. I don’t think, and correct me if I am wrong, that my wife and I could have forced a church to marry us, the church can discriminate on this matter always has. Not that we tried being atheists and all. ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/70 "2012-12-12T14:51:33Z")
> [@lorene](#): > > Harmful in what way? To whom? How? I am guessing it makes baby Jesus cry. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/71 "2012-12-12T14:52:45Z")
> [@Gestalt](#): > > You can’t say something like this and not expect people to ask for more detail . . . Why do you think gay marriage is “unfortunate”? I thought it would be obvious. I am against it. However, I do not find it to be a pressing issue. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/72 "2012-12-12T15:08:14Z")
I remember reading a thread about a nice little advert for something or other, in which it showed gay couples getting married. A couple of people said, “I thought it was nice, but I really wish they hadn’t shown the guys kissing.” I opened the ad expecting to see full-blown tongue down each other’s throats, but what I got was just sweet little mouth kisses, at the couple’s weddings. At a perfectly normal time, when no one would have even wondered about a straight couple kissing, and actually would have been confused if a straight couple didn’t kiss. That was rather enlightening to me. That it was OK to show gay couples marrying as long as boys don’t kiss each other, ever, not even sweetly. I presume that’s how the milder opponents of SSM feel…feelings of “ick”. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/73 "2012-12-12T15:16:20Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Excellent. > Please, would you be able to tell us what is “harmful” in an official, legal recognition of couplehood (with the attendant inheritance, visitation, power of attourney, etc rights) for same sex couples as marriage is now generally reserved for opposite sex couples? > > “Smoking is harmful because it is recognized to cause cancer and other diseases; same-sex marriage is harmful because \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_.” > > Thank you. You can do a simple SDMB search to find the answer to that. > [@lorene](#): > > Harmful in what way? To whom? How? You can do a simple SDMB search to find the answer to that. > [@Anaamika](#): > > I remember reading a thread about a nice little advert for something or other, in which it showed gay couples getting married. A couple of people said, “I thought it was nice, but I really wish they hadn’t shown the guys kissing.” > > I opened the ad expecting to see full-blown tongue down each other’s throats, but what I got was just sweet little mouth kisses, at the couple’s weddings. At a perfectly normal time, when no one would have even wondered about a straight couple kissing, and actually would have been confused if a straight couple didn’t kiss. > > That was rather enlightening to me. That it was OK to show gay couples marrying as long as boys don’t kiss each other, ever, not even sweetly. I presume that’s how the milder opponents of SSM feel…feelings of “ick”. As I said, no ick, no eww. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/74 "2012-12-12T15:20:26Z")
Wait. I think I see where a failure to communicate is coming in. You keep saying that SSM is about “enjoyment,” despite also being “harmful.” We have gotten hung up on the “harmful” part. I am now wondering why you think marriage is about “enjoyment”? Marriage is about shared finances, legal rights and obligations, inheritance rights, and a hell of a lot of other things that you otherwise need a damn good lawyer to draw up individual contracts about (and even then somebody else’s lawyer might challenge any or all of those contracts). Is marriage, to you, mostly a social recognition that these two folks are having sex? (I do not recall a sexual activity test when we applied for a marriage license, but things may be different in another jurisdiction.) ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/75 "2012-12-12T15:21:21Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > As I said, no ick, no eww. I wasn’t talking to you, for you, or about you. I know everyone else is jumping your shit in this thread. I am not and really couldn’t care less about your opinion, which you have every right to have. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/76 "2012-12-12T15:22:44Z")
Despite what you are saying, you have posted in a LOT of marriage threads, gender threads, etc, and made LOTS of posts in some of those threads. It’s not a “simple search” to just cull what your beliefs are from your posting history. So stop being condescending and coy and answer these people’s questions. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/77 "2012-12-12T15:23:32Z")
It warms my heart, I feel like we are moving forward, yeah us! I also don’t give much credit to the argument that marriage is only this or that. None of these people objected when marriage was turned into a stunt by the Kardashian’s, when the churches started selling annulments just so they could get remarried, etc. As long as people are willing to accept, and this is what’s so hard for them after so very long it being the other way, that we live in a democracy. And the anti gay marriage crowd is rapidly becoming a minority. I agree to respect their view as long as they respect the rules of democracy, which they willingly embraced when their view was the enshrined and majority one. I can kind of understand that they just assumed their way would always be, and that it’s a very difficult thing to accept that such isn’t the case. That’s got to be hard. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/78 "2012-12-12T15:25:45Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Wait. > I think I see where a failure to communicate is coming in. > > You keep saying that SSM is about “enjoyment,” despite also being “harmful.” We have gotten hung up on the “harmful” part. > > I am now wondering why you think marriage is about “enjoyment”? Marriage is about shared finances, legal rights and obligations, inheritance rights, and a hell of a lot of other things that you otherwise need a damn good lawyer to draw up individual contracts about (and even then somebody else’s lawyer might challenge any or all of those contracts). > > Is marriage, to you, mostly a social recognition that these two folks are having sex? (I do not recall a sexual activity test when we applied for a marriage license, but things may be different in another jurisdiction.) They didn’t even make us prove my husband had actually gotten a divorce from his ex-wife, let alone ask us if, when, and how we were doin’ it. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/79 "2012-12-12T15:27:43Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I remember reading a thread about a nice little advert for something or other, in which it showed gay couples getting married. A couple of people said, “I thought it was nice, but I really wish they hadn’t shown the guys kissing.” > > I opened the ad expecting to see full-blown tongue down each other’s throats, but what I got was just sweet little mouth kisses, at the couple’s weddings. At a perfectly normal time, when no one would have even wondered about a straight couple kissing, and actually would have been confused if a straight couple didn’t kiss. > > That was rather enlightening to me. That it was OK to show gay couples marrying as long as boys don’t kiss each other, ever, not even sweetly. I presume that’s how the milder opponents of SSM feel…feelings of “ick”. As a long time supporter of gays’ rights (which really I just consider as _human_ rights), I still have to admit that PDAs between two men do make me uncomfortable. My lizard brain, for some reason, does **not** want to see this, as much as I realize that it’s the _natural_ choice for other people. I don’t know why this is. It just is. Doesn’t stop me from supporting any two consenting adults (hey, any number of consenting adults! Orgies could be fun! :D) touching each other to their hearts’ content – I just don’t want to see it when it’s male on male. So I can sort of understand the “ick” factor some people feel. What I cannot accept is the notion that somebody’s (yes even my) “ick factor” should be a reason to enforce _other_ people _not_ enjoying the activity that make them (yes, even me :o) go “ick.” To each their own. I’m sure I’ve done things in public which somebody at some time has considered “icky.” They survived the experience and so can I (and everybody else.) I have to join other people asking those who are against SSM – where is the harm _to you_? To use **Ají** ’s smoking analogy – even if one thinks Gay Sex (or just Gay Marriage) is “harmful” in some way to those enjoying it, where is the harm _to you (as a member of the public)_? (which is the standard used, for example, in banning smoking in confined spaces or DUI.) ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/80 "2012-12-12T15:28:53Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > You can do a simple SDMB search to find the answer to that. > > You can do a simple SDMB search to find the answer to that. Or you could answer the fucking question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602.md?page=5)