# For opponents of SSM, how do you react to seeing images/video of happy gay couples being married? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 10, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602 "2012-12-10T15:23:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/101 "2012-12-12T17:42:26Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > As long as people are willing to accept, and this is what’s so hard for them after so very long it being the other way, that we live in a democracy. And the anti gay marriage crowd is rapidly becoming a minority. I agree to respect their view as long as they respect the rules of democracy, which they willingly embraced when their view was the enshrined and majority one. Good point. Somewhere I read a quote that said “The test of courage is when you’re in the minority, the test of virtue is when you’re in the majority”. Something like that. I can abide by those who lament that their views are going the way of slavery or segregation, but not those who claim its unamerican, unfair, and want to stop it with lies. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/102 "2012-12-12T17:46:19Z")
Who said anything about threads? You said that people just want to minimize you as an opponent and I’m saying that we don’t need to do anything, you’re minimalizing yourself with no help from us. Now, I’m not the OP and it seems as though the OP and I disagree on the avenue of discussion somewhat but in general, when someone asks a question and another person answers, there’s a give and take where people are asked to expound further on the reasoning behind their answers and rebuttals. Making a contentious statement and then doing nothing but repeatedly posting that you’re not going to say anything else on the subject strikes me as inefficient, in poor taste and quickly becomes uninteresting. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/103 "2012-12-12T17:57:03Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Who said anything about threads? You said that people just want to minimize you as an opponent and I’m saying that we don’t need to do anything, you’re minimalizing yourself with no help from us. > > Now, I’m not the OP and it seems as though the OP and I disagree on the avenue of discussion somewhat but in general, when someone asks a question and another person answers, there’s a give and take where people are asked to expound further on the reasoning behind their answers and rebuttals. Making a contentious statement and then doing nothing but repeatedly posting that you’re not going to say anything else on the subject strikes me as inefficient, in poor taste and quickly becomes uninteresting. I misread. It is not contentious to answer a the OP when it is specifically geared towards antiSSM people in a very narrow point. I’m sorry if you can’t particiapte in a thread talking about just one part of the SSM debate. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/104 "2012-12-12T17:59:49Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > It isn’t. you’s love for it to be true because it’s makes it easier to minimize your opponents. > It ain’t, though. Okay. But absent any examples of actual demonstrable harm to society you’d care to offer (and “go Google it” doesn’t count) I’ll continue to believe in the accuracy of my assessment. And what I’d actually love is for these discussions not to exist at all, which I’m confident will be the case in a generation or two. We just happen to live at the cusp of a societal change. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/105 "2012-12-12T18:04:01Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > I misread. > It is not contentious to answer a the OP when it is specifically geared towards antiSSM people in a very narrow point. > I’m sorry if you can’t particiapte in a thread talking about just one part of the SSM debate. The act of answering is not usually contentious, no but your answer itself is and you should expect challenges to blithe assertions. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/106 "2012-12-12T18:11:14Z")
One reason I think people are uncomfortable with SSM: They’re uncomfortable with what (many) gay male couples do behind closed doors. ---
**Author:** ![Weeping\_Wyvern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@Weeping\_Wyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weeping_Wyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/107 "2012-12-12T18:17:19Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > In your eyes convicted murderers have every divine, legal, and social right to marry in prison, but two loving gay parents, or two committed, faithful, and dedicated women, or two lifelong male partners do not deserve those rights? If an action is intrinsically good, then it’s a good thing no matter what bad things the persons committing it have also done. And if an act is intrinsically bad, then it’s a bad thing despite any admirable qualities possessed by its perpetrators. I think most people would agree with this, although obviously we disagree on which actions fall under which categories. So I really question the propaganda value of touting the love and commitment and faithfulness of homosexual couples. I mean maybe such an approach works for converting some people, but it definitely doesn’t seem to be working for me. Love and commitment and faithfulness are certainly wonderful things, and perhaps their wonderfullness even excuses such couples from some moral responsibility for their undesirable acts. But their personal culpability is irrelevant to the fact that I can’t sanction a public wrong. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/108 "2012-12-12T18:20:24Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > One reason I think people are uncomfortable with SSM: They’re uncomfortable with what (many) gay male couples do behind closed doors. I think that they’re more worried about what they do in public. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/109 "2012-12-12T18:21:57Z")
> [@Weeping\_Wyvern](#): > > But their personal culpability is irrelevant to the fact that I can’t sanction a public wrong. Fair enough. What, exactly, makes it a public wrong? That question is going completely unanswered in this thread. And please don’t tell us to Google it. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/110 "2012-12-12T18:28:05Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Apparently a simple analogy is too much for many. I shall explain for the last time. > The only two factors that \*\*for me \*\*in the analogy **I** chose for the reasons \*\*I \*\*decided are: > > 1. It is harmful. > 2. It is enjoyed. Oh, derp, derp! I guess you’re too smart for me. You get simple analogies and I don’t. No, smart guy, I get your analogy; I do not get your logic. Like a lot of people, I fail to see the harm in two chicks getting married, but that wasn’t even my question. I’m pretty sure you have some religiosity clouding your opinion. I could be wrong, but I’m not going to do a search of your thousands of posts searching for clues to find out when you could just answer here like a normal person. Anyway, given your premise that they are both harmful and enjoyed by people, why are you okay with smoking being legal but not same sex marriage? I mean, surely you don’t want every harmful but enjoyable thing that there is to be outlawed, right? Clearly you don’t, so what separates some from others? More specifically, what separates \*this \*(SSM) from others? Is it Jesus? You can say so. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/111 "2012-12-12T18:49:28Z")
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/12/the-marriage-plot-inside-this-years-epic-campaign-for-gay-equality/265865/"]The Atlantic has a (long) interesting article on how marriage won out in the last election cycle. They cite the main reason is a shift from intellectual arguments regarding equality and fairness and targeted more emotional reasonings where it isn’t about “gay marriage” but “marriage.” Also a better understanding of those opposed to gay marriage. > [@](#): > > Simon found many voters were struggling as painfully as that woman with the issue of gay marriage. Their “undecided” status didn’t come from a lack of feelings on the issue. They were powerfully conflicted, caught between two deep-seated sentiments: On the one hand, a desire to be fair and compassionate toward their fellow man; on the other, a loyalty to what they saw as the ironclad teachings of religion, tradition, or culture. > > “These were not mean people, not bigots, not bad people,” said Thalia Zepatos, who, as Freedom to Marry’s director of public engagement, spent 2010 synthesizing a massive amount of marriage-related research – collating nearly 100 different surveys, studies, exit polls and focus groups from every state that had considered the issue, including new research the group commissioned. “As long as they’d ever thought about marriage, they’d had a certain image of what it meant, and now all of a sudden we were asking them to expand that,” she said. “They had questions that deserved to be answered.” ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/112 "2012-12-12T20:02:28Z")
> [@Weeping\_Wyvern](#): > > So I really question the propaganda value of touting the love and commitment and faithfulness of homosexual couples. I mean maybe such an approach works for converting some people, but it definitely doesn’t seem to be working for me. Love and commitment and faithfulness are certainly wonderful things, and perhaps their wonderfullness even excuses such couples from some moral responsibility for their undesirable acts. But their personal culpability is irrelevant to the fact that I can’t sanction a public wrong. It appears that a majority of us intend to treat all humans equally despite you. No one who views all humans as equal needs to undergo a conversion, but since you mentioned it, just apply whatever algorithm you used to accept and support interracial marriage. Then you can stop wringing your hands over the happiness of people who won’t be available to date you. ---
**Author:** ![Weeping\_Wyvern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@Weeping\_Wyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weeping_Wyvern)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/113 "2012-12-12T20:39:33Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I think that they’re more worried about what they do in public. Indeed. Homosexuals may do immoral things behind closed doors, but since that harms no one but themselves, I’m inclined to leave them alone. The government can’t regulate the minutiae of intimate relations. “Equal marriage rights” is another matter entirely, however. It crosses the line from asking passive acceptance to demanding active support. It’s no longer “I want to be able to live my life in peace without fear of arrest”, but “I want the government to affirm that my relationship is as valid as all others, and woe betide those who disagree”. > [@tdn](#): > > Fair enough. > > What, exactly, makes it a public wrong? That question is going completely unanswered in this thread. Well there isn’t really anything novel for me to say here; the traditional position is well-known, and speaks for itself. Rather than trying to argue past each other from mutually-incompatible starting points, I think it makes more sense for us to engage in more constructive dialog: How can we live together in peace and understanding, despite our different opinions? That’s why I liked the opening premiss of this thread - it wasn’t about arguing, but understanding. > [@Troppus](#): > > It appears that a majority of us intend to treat all humans equally despite you. No one who views all humans as equal needs to undergo a conversion, but since you mentioned it, just apply whatever algorithm you used to accept and support interracial marriage. Then you can stop wringing your hands over the happiness of people who won’t be available to date you. Haha what is that supposed to mean? There are an awful lot of people in the world who aren’t available to date me, and I’m guessing most of them are heterosexual. ---
**Author:** ![Craneop2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Craneop2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Craneop2)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/114 "2012-12-12T20:43:49Z")
What the hell? You ask for a persons opinion on something and when he gives an opinion different than yours you turn it into a 3 page pile on? These are the kind of threads that are more detrimental to your cause than anything else. Why ask for an opinion if you don’t want to hear a dissenting view? The man/woman has his mindset and his own thoughts. Any amount of name calling or berating is not gonna change it. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/115 "2012-12-12T20:59:40Z")
> [@Weeping\_Wyvern](#): > > How can we live together in peace and understanding, despite our different opinions? We can’t. Sorry. On this issue, your “differing opinion” is that I should be treated like a second class citizen. There’s really no way to have that debate and stay respectful, because you’re starting from a position that is inherently insulting and dehumanizing towards your opposition. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/116 "2012-12-12T21:03:50Z")
> [@Weeping\_Wyvern](#): > > Haha what is that supposed to mean? There are an awful lot of people in the world who aren’t available to date me, and I’m guessing most of them are heterosexual. I fail to see how what others do with those they love affects you in any way other than to put a dent in your dating pool. Morality is a social concept which thankfully evolves with us and exists independently of the Bible. Elsewise slavery would be the norm, as would animal sacrifice, stoning, and other barbaric practices. There is nothing immoral about sex between consenting adults. It’s a natural inclination for all living creatures. You mentioned conversion as if the default position of humans is to find error in homosexuality and that supporters must have been convinced to accept it. That isn’t true. Some of us have never given it a single thought, though some sheltered folks insulated by church or city life (homosexual behavior in animals is an unsurprising feature on farms, zoos, and the wild) may have needed some exposure to accept it. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/117 "2012-12-12T21:05:36Z")
> [@Craneop2](#): > > What the hell? > You ask for a persons opinion on something and when he gives an opinion different than yours you turn it into a 3 page pile on? > These are the kind of threads that are more detrimental to your cause than anything else. Why ask for an opinion if you don’t want to hear a dissenting view? > The man/woman has his mindset and his own thoughts. Any amount of name calling or berating is not gonna change it. > > YMMV Certain types of people seek opportunities to martyr themselves. I suspect the pilee is enjoying himself immensely. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/118 "2012-12-12T21:09:20Z")
> [@Weeping\_Wyvern](#): > > How can we live together in peace and understanding, despite our different opinions? I’m all for living together in peace and understanding. The paradox for me is that while I want peace and understanding for everyone, your version seems to want to exclude a significant segment of the population. How do you square that? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/119 "2012-12-12T21:12:36Z")
> [@Craneop2](#): > > What the hell? > You ask for a persons opinion on something and when he gives an opinion different than yours you turn it into a 3 page pile on? > These are the kind of threads that are more detrimental to your cause than anything else. Why ask for an opinion if you don’t want to hear a dissenting view? > The man/woman has his mindset and his own thoughts. Any amount of name calling or berating is not gonna change it. > > YMMV I didn’t intend for the thread to become a pile on- I was (and still am) genuinely curious about the opinions of the opposing view on the “emotional aspect”, so to speak, of gay marriage. I appreciate the input of those who have spoken up in the thread, even as I disagree with them. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/120 "2012-12-12T21:16:49Z")
> [@Weeping\_Wyvern](#): > > Indeed. Homosexuals may do immoral things behind closed doors, but since that harms no one but themselves, I’m inclined to leave them alone. The government can’t regulate the minutiae of intimate relations. “Equal marriage rights” is another matter entirely, however. It crosses the line from asking passive acceptance to demanding active support. It’s no longer “I want to be able to live my life in peace without fear of arrest”, but “I want the government to affirm that my relationship is as valid as all others, and woe betide those who disagree”. Indeed. Interracial couples may do immoral things behind closed doors, but since that harms no one but themselves, I’m inclined to leave them alone. The government can’t regulate the minutiae of intimate relations. “Equal marriage rights” for interracial couples is another matter entirely, however. It crosses the line from asking passive acceptance to demanding active support. It’s no longer “I want to be able to live my life in peace without fear of arrest”, but “I want the government to affirm that my interracial relationship is as valid as all others, and woe betide those who disagree”. Woe indeed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602.md?page=7)