# For opponents of SSM, how do you react to seeing images/video of happy gay couples being married? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 10, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602 "2012-12-10T15:23:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/121 "2012-12-12T21:56:53Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Okay. But absent any examples of actual demonstrable harm to society you’d care to offer (and “go Google it” doesn’t count) I’ll continue to believe in the accuracy of my assessment. > > And what I’d actually love is for these discussions not to exist at all, which I’m confident will be the case in a generation or two. We just happen to live at the cusp of a societal change. You may continue to believe as you please. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > The act of answering is not usually contentious, no but your answer itself is and you should expect challenges to blithe assertions. That would be true if there were a way to answer the OP, as intended, that would have 10 people asking “but why???”. > [@etv78](#): > > One reason I think people are uncomfortable with SSM: They’re uncomfortable with what (many) gay male couples do behind closed doors. No, at least for me. > [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Oh, derp, derp! I guess you’re too smart for me. You get simple analogies and I don’t. > > No, smart guy, I get your analogy; I do not get your logic. Like a lot of people, I fail to see the harm in two chicks getting married, but that wasn’t even my question. I’m pretty sure you have some religiosity clouding your opinion. I could be wrong, but I’m not going to do a search of your thousands of posts searching for clues to find out when you could just answer here like a normal person. Anyway, given your premise that they are both harmful and enjoyed by people, why are you okay with smoking being legal but not same sex marriage? I mean, surely you don’t want every harmful but enjoyable thing that there is to be outlawed, right? Clearly you don’t, so what separates some from others? More specifically, what separates \*this \*(SSM) from others? Is it Jesus? You can say so. If you fail to see the harm I am 100% sure there is no argument I can say that will change your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/122 "2012-12-12T21:59:24Z")
AKA cause Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/123 "2012-12-12T22:01:19Z")
> [@Fool\_in\_the\_Rain](#): > > This may seem wishy-washy, but over the years this is the position I’ve reached. In the past, I’ve been against it, but over time I’ve listened, and began to understand what the LGBT community has been seeking. > > Gay folks getting married doesn’t bother me, but, in all honesty, seeing two men kissing makes me uncomfortable. It doesn’t seem normal _to me_. This is the biggest problem i had in the past, the image was disturbing, and I believe I based my bias upon that alone, but today I wouldn’t begrudge their right to be happy together. > > I understand using the term ‘normal’ is a double-edged sword, but it is what it is. I don’t have those feelings, I don’t understand them, and quite frankly may never understand, but I also have no interest in invalidating their right to love one another. > > I’m married (well soon to be not - another story for another time), but I never (even then) felt my marriage threatened by gay marriage, nor did I think it invalidated it, reduced it, or weakened it. I do understand the vitriol others have against it, I once felt it, but now question why some can’t get past it, or at least learn a little before making blanket statements of rejection. The LGBT folks want the same rights as everyone else: healthcare, hospital visits, end-of-life-decision-making, life insurance, and innumerable other rights married folks have. Let 'em have them, no harm to me. This is encouraging to read. I’m betting that a lot of people have stories like yours, and more and more will in the future. > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > It is harmful - to _them_. It’s harmful because they continue to insist gay marriage is harmful when it isn’t, and when more and more people _see_ that it isn’t. It’s harmful to them because their numbers are dwindling, the world is changing around them and they’re finding themselves more and more isolated in their antiquated belief. > > That’s the harm that isn’t being described, for fairly obvious reasons. Right. When some people talk about “traditional marriage,” they don’t just mean one man and one woman being married. They also mean that both follow traditional gender roles. The man is the head of the household and makes major decisions and is the major breadwinner. The woman is the nurturing, supportive partner. The wife may work before she has kids, but she’ll definitely stay at home once kids come along. She will do the majority of the housework and childcare, other than the husband will maybe do more of the discipline. If questioned, they’ll defend this as not being sexism or anything bad, but just as natural roles being fulfilled. Men are strong and leaders, and women are nurturing and supporters. To have a successful marriage and to successfully raise kids, then of course you need a man and a woman, and both to fulfill their natural roles. You’ll hear things like this a lot with many religious and other conservative leaders. However, seeing happy, successful marriages shows those that believe in “traditional marriage” that what they had been thinking was wrong. Seeing two men or two women married shows that the roles in a marriage or in parenthood don’t have to be solely assigned to one gender. So seeing successful SSM might make people might start questioning what they’ve believed about opposite-sex marriage. This isn’t the case for all people against SSM. And I’m sure that most of them wouldn’t state things this way. But I’ve seen this theory speculated and it made sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/124 "2012-12-12T22:15:45Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > If you fail to see the harm I am 100% sure there is no argument I can say that will change your mind. I’m not asking you to change my reasoning; I’m asking you to explain _yours_, which you seem bafflingly unwilling, and perhaps unable, to do. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/125 "2012-12-12T23:42:57Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > I’m not asking you to change my reasoning; I’m asking you to explain _yours_, which you seem bafflingly unwilling, and perhaps unable, to do. I can respect any reasoned opinion which may differ from mine. However, I feel no obligation to show respect for an unreasoned, unsupported or unexplained opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/126 "2012-12-13T00:21:23Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > I’m not asking you to change my reasoning; I’m asking you to explain _yours_, which you seem bafflingly unwilling, and perhaps unable, to do. The thread shows my answers. The search function too. > [@DrFidelius](#): > > I can respect any reasoned opinion which may differ from mine. However, I feel no obligation to show respect for an unreasoned, unsupported or unexplained opinion. I completely agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/127 "2012-12-13T03:01:15Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > I’m not asking you to change my reasoning; I’m asking you to explain _yours_, which you seem bafflingly unwilling, and perhaps unable, to do. I don’t think there’s really any question here. It’s wrong because religious teachings, as understood by some people, say it’s wrong. That feels valid for people who use those religious teachings as a guide for how to conduct their lives. It’s harmful because it’s sinful, and being sinful is harmful to the soul of the sinner, and also harmful to those who share community with sinners. It’s like 1/3 of the posters in this thread have decided that holding someone down until they explain these very obvious things in text is more fascinating (or entertaining) than just sticking with the OP and discussing first impressions of news stories about gay weddings. Which the person at the bottom of this pile-on actually did from his first post in this thread. How do you feel about new stories of gay marriage? I feel uncomfortable because I think gay marriage is wrong. But why do you think it’s wrong? I’d rather not derail this thread with those details, but I’ve mentioned my views in other threads if you’re interested. BUT I ASKED WHY AND YOU CAN’T IGNORE ME BECAUSE…STRAIGHT DOPE! So tiresome. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/128 "2012-12-13T03:36:58Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > I don’t think there’s really any question here. It’s wrong because religious teachings, as understood by some people, say it’s wrong. That feels valid for people who use those religious teachings as a guide for how to conduct their lives. It’s harmful because it’s sinful, and being sinful is harmful to the soul of the sinner, and also harmful to those who share community with sinners. > > It’s like 1/3 of the posters in this thread have decided that holding someone down until they explain these very obvious things in text is more fascinating (or entertaining) than just sticking with the OP and discussing first impressions of news stories about gay weddings. Which the person at the bottom of this pile-on actually did from his first post in this thread. > > How do you feel about new stories of gay marriage? > I feel uncomfortable because I think gay marriage is wrong. > But why do you think it’s wrong? > I’d rather not derail this thread with those details, but I’ve mentioned my views in other threads if you’re interested. > BUT I ASKED WHY AND YOU CAN’T IGNORE ME BECAUSE…STRAIGHT DOPE! > > So tiresome. Dumb. If you read even a single post of mine in this thread, you’d know I never asked why he thought same sex marriage was wrong. I even explicitly stated I’m not interested in why he thinks it’s wrong, but want to know why he thinks it should be against the law. Like I said, I’m guessing Jesusosity has something to do with it. I’ve met religious people before, you know? I’m not _gasp_ shocked that there are people in this world who think homosexuality is a bad thing. What I’d like to know why someone thinks its badness should make same sex marriage against the law. The \*only \*thing I asked is why he thinks it should be allowed, not what he thinks is wrong with it. Two very different questions. And for the record, refusing to answer a simple question and instead saying “Search through my post history for your answer” is enormously stupid as fuck. Just so you know. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/129 "2012-12-13T03:38:55Z")
For the record, I never asked anyone why they think it’s wrong. I assume it’s because they’re assholes. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/130 "2012-12-13T03:48:33Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > For the record, I never asked anyone why they think it’s wrong. I assume it’s because they’re assholes. Ha. I’m sure a fair amount of homphobes are just jerks, and some are well meaning who think Jesus frowns upon the gayness, or whatever. I’ll worry about changing their minds about that some other day. For now, I’m just dying to know why, even if Jesus doesn’t like it, it should be against the law. I don’t see people wanting to ban everything Jebus is against, so what gives? Why can’t they be okay with same sex couples marrying, the same way they’re kosher with legally allowing people to smoke cigarettes and fornicate? That’s all I’ve ever wanted to know out of these types, and have never, ever, not even once, gotten an answer to this question. You think same sex marriage is wrong? Terrific, I think vodka gimlets are wrong. Now why should either be against the law? One billion dollars if you answer. Such a simple question, yet I am convinced I will go to my cold, dark grave before anyone just goddamn answers it. ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/131 "2012-12-13T03:51:50Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Dumb. > > If you read even a single post of mine in this thread, you’d know I never asked why he thought same sex marriage was wrong. I even explicitly stated I’m not interested in why he thinks it’s wrong, but want to know why he thinks it should be against the law. Like I said, I’m guessing Jesusosity has something to do with it. I’ve met religious people before, you know? I’m not _gasp_ shocked that there are people in this world who think homosexuality is a bad thing. What I’d like to know why someone thinks its badness should make same sex marriage against the law. The \*only \*thing I asked is why he thinks it should be allowed, not what he thinks is wrong with it. Two very different questions. > > And for the record, refusing to answer a simple question and instead saying “Search through my post history for your answer” is enormously stupid as fuck. Just so you know. I read the whole thread, so if I wasn’t talking to you then I wasn’t talking to you :D. Or maybe I just misunderstood your particular posts and lumped you in with what seemed to be a pretty clear trend, in which case I apologize sincerely. Two other things: 1. Although for the record I am strongly pro-rainbow, I don’t have any trouble understanding that someone who thinks gay marriage is wrong would also think it should be illegal, probably for the very same reasons. It isn’t interesting to me, nor does it advance the intention of the OP, to continue to focus on those things in this thread. 2. Just because _I_ think it’s uninteresting doesn’t mean it actually _is_ uninteresting, any more than you thinking something is stupid actually makes it stupid. Someone states an opinion and then declines to elaborate on the whys and wherefores, and then someone else gets completely frustrated and bent out of shape because they expect to be able to demand that that elaboration occur. Alert the media and a big HO HUM. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/132 "2012-12-13T03:54:55Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > 1. Just because _I_ think it’s uninteresting doesn’t mean it actually _is_ uninteresting, any more than you thinking something is stupid actually makes it stupid. This is false. If I think something is dumb, it is dumb. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/133 "2012-12-13T03:58:43Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > This is false. If I think something is dumb, it is dumb. 🙂 Well that’s just stupid 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/134 "2012-12-13T04:23:40Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > A) It’s banned in established churches - Mosques, Christian churches, organized religion etc.. You are aware that there are many established churches that disagree that it’s wrong? Are you proposing that some authority actually interfere with those churches’ autonomy to make decisions for themselves? ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/135 "2012-12-13T05:29:44Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I just find PDA disgusting, full stop, whatever the gender or orientation of the participants. I am a prude what can I say. Or I could still be harbouring trauma from that flight to Sydney sitting next to demonstratively affectionate couple. Out of curiosity, what counts as a PDA? ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/136 "2012-12-13T05:47:34Z")
> [@Blackberry](#): > > Out of curiosity, what counts as a PDA? Holding hands, kissing etc., it’s only acceptable if it’s the elderly or hot lesbians. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Glazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a88e57/32.png) [@Glazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glazer)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/137 "2012-12-13T05:52:09Z")
I wouldn’t count holding hands or a quick peck. But making out should be in private no mater who you are. ---
**Author:** ![Scholar\_Beardpig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de053/32.png) [@Scholar\_Beardpig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scholar_Beardpig)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/138 "2012-12-13T06:08:09Z")
I am a straight, white male. On no level whatsoever am I opposed to same-sex marriage. I count a number of people in my acquaintance, friends and enemies alike, as active, open homosexuals of both sexes, and I have been tuned on to the fact that sexual orientation cuts across all human lines and categorizations. I have always voted for the expansion of marriage rights at every opportunity. I have even given of my personal treasure to support this cause. My Buddhist faith compels me to believe that all marriages are of equal moral consequence. I have no desire whatsoever to restrict marriage. But as a straight, white male from a conservative, aristocratic, Christian background - even though I am neither conservative, nor Christian, nor even really very aristocratic anymore - whenever I see gay couples marry, or see a celebration of political and social progress for the homosexual community, or anything like that, to my heart, it is always tinged with this other meaning, this message I feel I receive from them. That other meaning can be best summarized as follows. “There is ‘our people’ and there is ‘your people.’ Your people have held all the power since time uncountable, but your time is coming to a close. For untold generations, you have spit on us; soon the time will come when we will spit on you. You have worn your manhood and your skin color and your accent and your passport as a symbol of power; soon it will become the mark of Caine upon your face. You have held us down, but soon enough we will rise up and destroy you, and avenge ourselves a thousand times over on your people, and you.” It’s absurd, I know. If I had been born in the 40s, I would probably feel the same way about integration and de-segregation and inter-racial marriage, yet from hindsight I have no problem with any of those things. But here I am today, and every time I see such a celebration, I cannot help but hear them cry, “We are moving on up!” And in my head, I can always fill in the second line - “and we will cast you down.” ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/139 "2012-12-13T06:42:24Z")
> [@Glazer](#): > > I wouldn’t count holding hands or a quick peck. But making out should be in private no mater who you are. Making out shouldn’t be done at all. Gross. But yeah, I think a quick kiss or a hug is fine just about anywhere. More cuddling is fine in a lot of places. I don’t know why someone would be hardcore against PDAs. Unless they’re really going at it, so what? And I honestly can’t think of one time I’ve seen a same-sex couple do that. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2012, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602/140 "2012-12-13T07:09:09Z")
> [@Scholar\_Beardpig](#): > > “There is ‘our people’ and there is ‘your people.’ Your people have held all the power since time uncountable, but your time is coming to a close. For untold generations, you have spit on us; soon the time will come when we will spit on you. You have worn your manhood and your skin color and your accent and your passport as a symbol of power; soon it will become the mark of Caine upon your face. You have held us down, but soon enough we will rise up and destroy you, and avenge ourselves a thousand times over on your people, and you.” That sounds exhausting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-opponents-of-ssm-how-do-you-react-to-seeing-images-video-of-happy-gay-couples-being-married/643602.md?page=8)