# For post-modern posters, truth depends on who said it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 21, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740 "2003-08-21T18:29:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/61 "2003-08-22T03:02:52Z")
**millroy** , ye wee fucking wanker: Did you read the original thread? How many people in that thread who derided Bush did so _on the basis of the quotations **december** posted_? Go ahead, you can look it up. Take your time. I’ll be here. ---
**Author:** ![fruitbat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fruitbat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fruitbat)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/62 "2003-08-22T03:03:19Z")
**December** , putting aside your politics for a minute, I am amazed at your lack of instinct for self-preservation. Were you a wild animal you would be a turtle without a shell. Much could be gained if you were willing to admit, without qualification when you made an unwise post or argument. For future reference if you must pull out the dictionary and crow that you only fulfilled one of two definitions of lying it is time to give up. I am just amazed that you don’t recognize the credibility that accrues when one admits to the occasional error in judgement. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/63 "2003-08-22T03:04:08Z")
BTW, just caught a glimpse of **december** , [**composing his next OP**](http://www.lifeisajoke.com/Pictures/head_up_ass.jpg). Cozy, ain’t it? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/64 "2003-08-22T03:19:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Clark K \* > **No one called Bush a liar based _only_ on the Clintons’ statements. They called him a liar or pawn of his advisers or whatever based on those statements combined with what we now know about what intelligence he was receiving on Iraq.** Um, yes they did, and worse. They called Bush a liar about statements made by someone else, the Clintons. > [@](#): > > \*\* Maybe what Bill Clinton said years ago was true at the time. Maybe he thought it was true but it was not. Maybe it was all empty rhetoric. We don’t know.\*\* It wasn’t “years ago” since it referenced 9/11. Interesting how you come up with all kinds of excuses for BC, maybe it was true, maybe he thought it was true, maybe it was all empty rhetoric. But when the exact same statement was attributed to President Bush, he’s a liar. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > **Likewise, Hillary Clinton’s more recent statement may have been her honest but mistaken assessment of the situation. It may have been the statements of a political coward parroting the lines of a popular president. It may have been a knowing lie said to the public in contradiction of private intelligence briefings. We don’t know. What we know is that those same statements coming out of Bush’s mouth would amount to lies.** Once again, you are proving **December’s** point. You’re criticizing President Bush just because, and making excuses for the Clintons, when they are the original source of the OP’s quotes! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/65 "2003-08-22T03:25:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > it’s sort of like the rule we have here about NOT misquoting posters on purpose. Well, it looks like **december** did just that-only with someone who isn’t a member of the board. You know, I’m a little curious myself as to the existence of this very thread. The OP here appears to be nothing more than an attempt to continue the discussion from the previously closed GD thread. Does that not bend the generally applied rules with respect to crossposting/multiposting, to say nothing of skirting the principle of board members adhering to the _spirit_ of a moderators rulings ? ---
**Author:** ![whatami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/85f322/32.png) [@whatami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whatami)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/66 "2003-08-22T03:40:58Z")
I wish a Mod would step in and let us know what the deal is with being able to post a OP strictly to get a reaction. Especially one in which the OP lies about the source. If it’s ok, I don’t see what the difference is between that and putting words in a posters mouth with a quote and then waiting untill called on it to say it was “a mistake”. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/67 "2003-08-22T03:41:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > **Are the Clintons liars? Well, if they said that, then yes, they are.** Kudos to **TwistofFate, Binarydrone, and Guinastasia** for at least being consistent. > [@](#): > > please remind me again of the time when “Clinton’s lies” were used to justify a unilateral invasion of Iraq? Never said they were. Why were the Clintons’ statements used to justify calling President Bush a liar? > [@](#): > > **How many people in that thread who derided Bush did so on the basis of the quotations december posted?** At least six of them, by my count. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/68 "2003-08-22T03:46:41Z")
> [@](#): > > At least six of them, by my count. This am Bizaro World now? One (1) person responded to the “presidential” quotation. That’s one (1). Are you also so very desperate to be right that you find it acceptable to deceive, inveigle, and obfuscate? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/69 "2003-08-22T03:51:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\*This am Bizaro World now? > > One (1) person responded to the “presidential” quotation. That’s one (1). > > Are you also so very desperate to be right that you find it acceptable to deceive, inveigle, and obfuscate? \*\* Are you an idiot? Oh wait, you are. The six (6) people I listed directly called Bush a liar, based on COMMENTS MADE BY THE CLINTONS! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/70 "2003-08-22T04:07:02Z")
Well, because they were lead to believe it was a quote from _Bush_, **milroyj**. D’uh. Are you really that fucking dense? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/71 "2003-08-22T04:09:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > The six (6) people I listed directly called Bush a liar, **based on COMMENTS MADE BY THE CLINTONS!** I submit the bolded part is incorrect. Can you back it up? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/72 "2003-08-22T04:14:10Z")
> [@](#): > > The six (6) people I listed directly called Bush a liar, based on COMMENTS MADE BY THE CLINTONS! …And here I thought that what **december** had to say in his OP had something to do with the responses he garnered :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/73 "2003-08-22T04:14:11Z")
I’m not sure how I feel about this. Tricking people is not very nice. On the other hand, if you can trick them and show them something important by doing so, perhaps it is not without merit. But then I guess, it would demonstrate weakness and bad character to trick somebody. I’ve done it myself and regretted it. I think if one is going to do something like this, they have to be very very careful. The proper way is to not trick somebody, but to allow them to trick themselves. To say the President said \_\_\_\_\_ and to simply not tell which President it was, and allow people to trick themselves would probably be a fair or at least acceptable way to go about it. Unfortunately, that’s not how December’s OP read. It did not simply ommit specificity and allow people to trick themselves. The false attribution of the second quote leads people into the trick. They do not do it themselves. People were tricked with false information. This is not a fair way to do it. Now December is claiming that it was an accident. Perhaps it was. I can’t read his mind. Certainly, it is a convenient accident. I will submit to you that it doesn’t really matter whether it was deliberate or not. If December is going to choose to play with dynamite and fire in this very dangerous way, and skate this close to the edge, than he is doing so knowingly. If such a dangerous thing backfires because he does it improperly, it really is his own fault. It hardly matters whether he cheated deliberately with the false attribution, or it was an accident. It’s just as bad both ways. Quite a few times I have thought December was being unfairly picked on. This is not such an occasion. I would think a very strong apology, offered unconditionally is in order. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/74 "2003-08-22T04:24:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*Are you an idiot? Oh wait, you are. The six (6) people I listed directly called Bush a liar, based on COMMENTS MADE BY THE CLINTONS! \*\* For accuracy’s sake, make that FIVE for the time being. My post was in _direct response_ to the thread _title_. To wit: > [@](#): > > \*\*Did the President mislead about Saddam’s WMDs, nukes and terrorists? \*\* Response: > [@](#): > > \*\*Time for another dose of reality: > > [Bush Lies](http://www.bushlies.net/pages/1/index.htm) > > Use as needed. \*\* How the fuck was I responding to any “Comments made by the Clintons”? ---
**Author:** ![Clark\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@Clark\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clark_K)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/75 "2003-08-22T04:27:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*Um, yes they did, and worse. They called Bush a liar about statements made by someone else, the Clintons. > > It wasn’t “years ago” since it referenced 9/11. Interesting how you come up with all kinds of excuses for BC, maybe it was true, maybe he thought it was true, maybe it was all empty rhetoric. But when the exact same statement was attributed to President Bush, he’s a liar. :rolleyes: > > Once again, you are proving **December’s** point. You’re criticizing President Bush just because, and making excuses for the Clintons, when they are the original source of the OP’s quotes! :rolleyes: \*\* Utter rubbish. First, the Bill Clinton comment, according to December’s original source, was made in 1998. Second, I am not criticizing Bush “just because.” I am criticizing him for something he DID. You and December seem to think these comments could come from anyone’s mouth and still be equally honest or dishonest. That’s ridiculous. We know a great deal about what Bush was told about the intelligence on Iraq, and we know what he told us about. We can therefore judge whether or not he lied, twisted the truth or gave us the unvarnished facts. I can’t make that judgment about something Bill Clinton said five years ago. I can’t make that judgment about something Senator Clinton said because I don’t know how she reached her conclusions. Look, if Bill Clinton says “I did not have sexual relations with that woman,” it’s a lie. If you take that statement, take it five years into the future and pretend it came out of George W. Bush’s mouth, it’s the gospel truth. Context matters. ---
**Author:** ![Nightime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Nightime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightime)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/76 "2003-08-22T04:29:19Z")
December actually did not prove anything important by tricking people. The fact of the matter is that Clinton did not start this war. And that is a _huge_ difference between him and Bush, is it not? By seemingly attributing the quotes to Bush, the quotes become connected with Bush’s _actions_. And that is when, in some opinions, they go from being mistakes to lies. People say a lot of things, many of them mistaken. When they are mistaken, they can be corrected. No harm done. However, when you say something, and you are mistaken, and based on that mistake you start a war and many people are killed, then we can no longer say “no harm done” can we? In fact, isn’t it true that we hold statements to a higher standard when WAR and DEATH are on the line? The point is this: When Clinton made his statements, war and death were not the result. When Bush made his statements, war and death were the result. Can you not see why one statement should be held to a higher standard? If you are going to risk war and death, you had better be SURE. I’m not even saying Bush lied. That is beside the point. Can you even admit that statements must be held to a higher standard when the risks of being wrong are so much deadlier? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/77 "2003-08-22T04:40:40Z")
Holy farging shnit . . . call me Mr. Observant over here, but . . . Hey **Clark**! How the hell ya been? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/78 "2003-08-22T04:43:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > The second part of the quote was a mistake on my part, not a lie. If I’d been paying better attention, I would have left it out of the OP or attributed it to “a close advisor of the President.” Do you stand by this statement? If you had attributed the quote this way, it would also be a lie. The quote must have come from some time in the past two years. In no way could Hillary Clinton be considered “a close advisor of the President” during that time. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/79 "2003-08-22T04:53:26Z")
No one could reasonably be expected to instantly determine the sources and dates of the conflated quotes without some sort of attribution. The OP deliberately set out to deceive readers and has admitted as much; smells like lying to me. I don’t think banning is in order, but I’d to propose that for incidents like these, maybe the Mods would consider changing the offender’s “member” tag to something like “no credibility” for a 1-3 month period. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2003, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/80 "2003-08-22T05:10:24Z")
**December:** As much as I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt, I find it exteremely hard to believe that you did not knowingly include the Hillary quote in your OP. Just think how much better you would have been able to make your case if you had simply been above board about the whole thing and debated the issue on it’s own merits. Instead, you ended up with a closed thread and a Pit experience. If your objective was to get a little chuckle for yourself, then I suppose you have succeeded. If your objective was to engage in serious debate, then I’m afraid you have failed. Only you can be the judge. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740.md?page=5)