# For post-modern posters, truth depends on who said it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 21, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740 "2003-08-21T18:29:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/161 "2003-08-23T05:30:27Z")
**millroy** , you still have not shown that the six-no-wait-five-no-maybe-fewer people in the original thread were responding to the bogus quotations in specific. Can you do so, or will you simply ignore the issue again? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/162 "2003-08-23T07:22:41Z")
> [@](#): > > RedFury, Voyager, Reeder (how predictable), tomndebb, An Arky, Fear Itself care to respond? Go back and read what I posted, **milroyj**. I ignored **december** ’s little mendacity, completely, and addressed the specific actions of Bush, regardless of any purported quotes in the OP. **december** _constantly_ whines that people are too caught up in challenging his “sources” and failing to address his ever-so-important _questions_ (that he tags onto his posts to give the appearance of a **Great Debate** when he posts his glurge in the **GD** forum), so I did him the courtesy of responding to his actual questions rather than challenging his purported quotes. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/163 "2003-08-23T09:46:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reeder \* > \*\*If you can show me where Clinton had intelligence telling him that there most likely were no WMD’s in Iraq, yes Clinton would be a liar. > > But Clinton didn’t take us to war over it either. > > And why do you think I’m a Clinton apologist? I’m not even a democrat. And I only voted for him once. \*\* Actually, Clinton _did_ ‘take us to war over it’. Nobody remembers [Operation: Desert Fox](http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/desert_fox/)? Just because it didn’t actually accomplish anything (in the long run), doesn’t mean it doesn’t qualify as a shooting war. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/164 "2003-08-23T10:10:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zoe \* > \*\*I think that if you read the original thread you will find that most people did not get their panties pulled down after all. Please consider that no one has defended Clinton’s reputation on integrity. Also, some of us who are _humorless, angry and upset_ did not even respond to december’s original deception. So you will have to come up with another reason for us to be disgusted. > > If december had been able to bring this off without getting everything mixed up – misquoting and misattributing and misleading, his “joke” stood a chance of being humorous and revealing. But it was clumsy and totally lacking in the finesse which is so essential to wit. Further, it was too bungled to make the point he was trying to make (which was something along the lines of _Resolved: the sun is hot)._ \*\* Uh huh. Because he made a mistake, the liberals see it as an opportunity to turn the tables on him. But that doesn’t matter really, because they would have found something — _something_ — to use as a means of rationalizing a pile-on complete with demands for discipline and banning. They would have found it simply because he is December. Even Poly falls victim to that sort of mentality from time to time. I doesn’t go like this: Ah! There’s something wrong. Let me see who this is… Rather, it goes like this: Ah! This is December. Let me find something wrong… His joke never stood a chance here. As I explained before, the only jokes that are funny here are those that make fun of God or rednecks. Though they prefer to believe otherwise, liberals are not exempt from prejudicial bias and bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/165 "2003-08-23T11:32:32Z")
**tomndebb** - I did go back and reread your response. You were obviously responding to the OP, going so far as to give a direct answer to the question **december** posed. He asked, “ **Was the President lying or misleading us?** ” You responded “He lied”. Claiming that when you posted to a thread, and made a direct response to questions and issues raised by the OP, you weren’t really responding to a thread, is mighty weak. You fell for it, quite clearly and unambiguously. “If Clinton says it, it is true. If Bush said it, it is false.” That is what **december** was trying to demonstrate, and he certainly succeeded. **andros** - Can you prove that I am responding to your post? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/166 "2003-08-23T11:43:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > Uh huh. Because he **made a mistake** , the liberals see it as an opportunity to turn the tables on him. But that doesn’t matter really, because they would have found something — _something_ — to use as a means of rationalizing a pile-on complete with demands for discipline and banning. Made a mistake? _Deliberately lied_ is a more accurate description. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\* They would have found it simply because he is December. Even Poly falls victim to that sort of mentality from time to time._\* What sort of crap is this? When was the last pile on onto **Polycarp**? I guess your intent is to claim that because **Polycarp** got unfairly attacked (some time? any time? cite?) **december** is in some way comparable to the well respected poster **Polycarp** > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > I doesn’t go like this: > > Ah! There’s something wrong. Let me see who this is… > > Rather, it goes like this: Ah! This is December. Let me find something wrong… It’s more like this: Ah! There’s something wrong. Ah. It’s a well known lying partisan fucking idiot. But the other way works well too: Ah, here’s a post from a noted lying partisan fucking idiot. There must be something wrong with it… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > His joke never stood a chance here. As I explained before, the only jokes that are funny here are those that make fun of God or rednecks. Though they prefer to believe otherwise, liberals are not exempt from prejudicial bias and bigotry. Now this is just wrong, too. I’ve laughed myself silly over jokes about giant squid, 1920s style death rays, all sorts of shit. Idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/167 "2003-08-23T11:57:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > **"If Clinton says it, it is true. If Bush said it, it is false." That is what december was trying to demonstrate, and he certainly succeeded.** Do you not think that the complete context change caused by the “inadvertent” inclusion of the Hillary quote renders the comparison utterly invalid? Do you not think that the level of the administration’s knowledge might change in 5 whole years? I sure as hell do, and for the record I think Clinton is a horrific liar. And shit, you don’t even have a clue what the respondents in question said to Clinton’s comments at the time, so how _any_ conclusions are being drawn from this is just beyond me. As for **Libertarian** ’s apparent argument that it doesn’t matter if **december** lies his arse off because “the liberals” would attack him anyway, well, words fail me. That’s pretty desperate. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/168 "2003-08-23T15:21:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RedFury \* > **Even _after_ I explained that I am not an American** Then your opinion doesn’t really count, now does it? **tomndebb** : What **Shodan** said. ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/169 "2003-08-23T15:36:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*His joke never stood a chance here. As I explained before, the only jokes that are funny here are those that make fun of God or rednecks. Though they prefer to believe otherwise, liberals are not exempt from prejudicial bias and bigotry. \*\* :Hands Libertarian a Kleenex: There, there, dear – it’s not that bad. Stop your weeping. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/170 "2003-08-23T15:37:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > \*\*I doesn’t go like this: Ah! There’s something wrong. Let me see who this is… > > Rather, it goes like this: Ah! This is December. Let me find something wrong…\*\* And who is responsible for that reaction? december himself with his cites that are all too often some combination of inaccurate, irresponsible, and flat out wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/171 "2003-08-23T15:45:39Z")
Aw, crap. **Burundi** , near as I know, doesn’t get annoyed at **Libertarian’s** martyr complex, his “Poor, poor me, doomed to be beset on all sides by blasphemers and authoritarians!” routine. That was me handing you a tissue, Lib; my apologies for any confusion. I missed giving you feedback in the melancholy thread, so here it is: when your melancholia leads you to paranoia, keep it you yourself. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/172 "2003-08-23T15:51:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dead Badger \* > As for **Libertarian** ’s apparent argument that it doesn’t matter if **december** lies his arse off because “the liberals” would attack him anyway, well, words fail me. That’s pretty desperate. **Libertarian’s** assertion is validated by [**Demostylus’s** post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=206377#newpost) in this thread: > [@](#): > > Mister Credibility launches the same tired and useless lies. Fuck off, december, you lying shitbag. Note that there’s no reference to anything in the post s/he’s responding to, just an attack. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/173 "2003-08-23T16:01:45Z")
Gather round, my children, and let me tell you the story of the boy who cried Wolfowitz. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/174 "2003-08-23T16:06:34Z")
Note also that **December** doesn’t quote **ElvisL1ves** ’s post, immediately following, that validates **Demostylus** ’s post, showing that Mister Credibility was indeed launching the same tired and useless lies. It was an attack – but it was an attack in the BBQ Pit, and while it wasn’t properly referenced, it was accurate. Say what you will, december: demostylus at least got one out of two. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/175 "2003-08-23T16:07:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*Then your opinion doesn’t really count, now does it? > \*\* Only if you’re working under the mistaken impression that you’re Dumbya and this is the UN. But since you aren’t and this isn’t, in my perfectly valid opinion, your Fearless Misleader remains a murderous lying Sack 'O Shite, and you continue to prove that you’re nothing but a cumstain. TTFN ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/176 "2003-08-23T16:08:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > **Gather round, my children, and let me tell you the story of the boy who cried Wolfowitz.** Drag him out and shoot him. I’ll swear out the warrant later. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/177 "2003-08-23T16:17:52Z")
Actually, it’s as I feared: [I’m hardly the first person to make this lame pun](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22who+cried+Wolfowitz%22). Shoot the others first! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/178 "2003-08-23T16:27:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RedFury \* > \*\*Only if you’re working under the mistaken impression that you’re Dumbya and this is the UN. > > But since you aren’t and this isn’t, in my perfectly valid opinion, your Fearless Misleader remains a murderous lying Sack 'O Shite, and you continue to prove that you’re nothing but a cumstain. > > TTFN \*\* Hmm, let me think about this for a sec. Nope, your opinion still doesn’t matter. Thanks for playing, we have some nice parting gifts for you. Or not. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/179 "2003-08-23T16:57:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*Hmm, let me think about this for a sec. \*\* Albeit no doubt unintentionally, that is damn funny. 'cuase, ya know, reading your dribble on this thread, **milroy** and “thoughtful,” don’t exactly spring to mind. OTOH, “a load his/her Momma should have swallowed,” often does. Ask Clinton how nasty cumstains can be. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![whatami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/85f322/32.png) [@whatami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whatami)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740/180 "2003-08-23T16:59:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > \*\*Hmm, let me think about this for a sec. Nope, your opinion still doesn’t matter. Thanks for playing, we have some nice parting gifts for you. Or not. \*\* Why is his, **Redfury’s** (?) opinion not important on this board? That’s the stupidest thing I’ve seen on the board this week. “You can’t have an opinion on American politics because you’re not an American!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-post-modern-posters-truth-depends-on-who-said-it/196740.md?page=10)