I think anybody who lives in a swing state, supports Sanders and refuses to vote for Clinton in the general is being very foolish. I don’t think there are going to be very many such people, but as we saw in 2000, a handful of voters can swing the result of a very close election. (Yes, yes…there are a nigh-infinite number of variables which could have given Gore the election had they gone a bit differently, but the obstinacy of the kamikaze Nader voters was clearly one of them).
The Sanders supporters who may well throw the election to the GOP should Clinton be nominated aren’t the handful of leftist ideologues, they’re the teeming masses of ordinary low-information voters who will WANT to vote for Hillary, but just won’t quite get around to it because they have so much other stuff going on that day. They may not even consciously say to themselves “If Bernie had been nominated, I would have found a way to make the time”, but the result will be the same. Enthusiasm matters, especially with the young voters who are Sanders’ bread and butter (maple syrup?). Should Clinton be the nominee, she will have to find a way to connect with these voters and not just count on their support.
Wow, you certainly do have a detailed knowledge of Senator Sanders’ legislative history. It’s almost as though you’re regurgitating some list of misleadingly spun talking points.
Yes, last year she flip-flopped after Sanders started attacking her on it. Prior to that she supported it. After the election? Depends on how much the oil companies offer her.
Yes, and I see no reason to ever entrust any of them with public office again.
Good god almighty, definitely not. But I do think voting on principle is more satisfying than putting a clothespin on one’s nose and voting on foreseeable outcomes.
I don’t believe in sin. I believe in being responsible for the foreseeable outcomes of one’s choices. If a person in a swing state chooses not to vote for the least bad candidate, that’s a choice they make, and it’s foreseeable that an outcome of their decision could be helping to place the more bad candidate into the most powerful position in the world.
That’s the choice that, were I to believe in sin, I’d consider sinful.
The name-calling is obnoxious, no doubt–but the underlying idea, that we should be aware of and own the consequences of our votes, is a valid idea.
Gee, I wonder what Bernie could possibly have been doing today that he considered more important than being in Washington to cast that all-important seventh vote? Oh, yeah, RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT!
Do YOU think that the “points” you’re raising are actually legitimate, or are you just hoping that someone else might be stupid enough to?
It certainly feels good, massaging one’s self-righteousness and applauding oneself over not getting one’s hands dirty, like those compromised realists. But does it still feel good when someone like Dubya gets the Presidency because, in part, of your decision to act on how good it made *you *feel at that moment?
Get over your damn selves, people. It’s about a civic responsibility you as a citizen are called upon to perform.
Gore did not lose. And he did not run a conservative campaign in 2000. That was his bag in 1988. In 2000, Lieberman was very uncomfortable with the Bob Shrum-directed progressive populist tenor of the campaign. IIRC his slogan was “The People vs. The Powerful”.
Both. Weren’t you angry at the Nader voters? Why not?
Except coherently.
There’s no better way to get people to get over their damn selves, is there? If you’re feeling miffed, or perhaps a bit guilty over your own voting history, then take a little more time to consider who’s at fault for that, hmm?
I’m imagining it, just like I’m imagining all the rest of the Clinton profiteering for the last thirty years. I’m sure it’s fine. I’m sure it’s fine. [/sarcasm]
You’ve already told us that your negative view of Clinton is based on what you imagine *might *come out some day, somehow, about something. Yes, unless you actually do have a supporting fact or two at your disposal, that’s purely your imagination at work.
As if the Republicans hadn’t been trying much harder for much, *much *longer than the Berniebots to find something … :rolleyes:
There are many principled, rational NON-Voters. I wasn’t one. I voted for Harry Browne- so definitely don’t blame me for not voting for the 6th or 7th preferred candidate.
I would call myself a “Sanders fan” because I think he has it about 1/2 right and I don’t think any of the other major candidates are close to 1/2. I don’t even mind that he’s a socialist, since there’s nothing close to a free-market major candidates. Most of them are fans of big government and big business working closely together.
I’m un-affiliated. I would consider voting for Sanders. It would be hard for me to vote for Clinton. I would consider voting for Gary Johnson, but I wouldn’t be excited about it. Other than that, I would probably do more good for myself, my family, state, country, and the world by staying home and doing something more meaningful with my time.
Not in any meaningful sense. Guantanamo Bay is not bad because it’s in Cuba, it’s bad because it’s an oubliette where the US government locks people up indefinitely without trial. Trying to close Gitmo in favour of opening Gitmo North does not address the problem.
I’m not even saying there aren’t people in Gitmo who should be locked up for life without parole, but before they are the government should be forced to make a fair and open case for why it is necessary in a court of law.
Well it’s looking more and more like Trump on the GOP side.
Please fellow Sanders supporters, support Clinton if it’s a choice between her and Trump.
I have supported Bernie by collecting nominating petition signatures here in New York for him. I’ve donated to his campaign. I will vote for him in the April NY primary. If that primary is still meaningful, I will phone bank and door to door canvass for him.
But . . .
I will be 100% for Hillary Clinton against Donald Trump if it comes to that in the general election. Enthusiastically and without a moment’s hesitation.
The devastation a Trump presidency would cause is horrible to contemplate.
I’m not “excluding” anything, I just can’t cover every possible future reality in a message board post. I was contrasting two models of Presidential behavior and indicating which one I dislike/like. It “goes without saying” that in the real world nothing fits cleanly into things as you might craft in a two paragraph message board post.
Agreed. And if the Democratic nomination is settled by the time your state votes, but the Republican one is not, I urge you to vote Trump! It’s not often we get an opportunity to go up against such a complete patsy.