And there are people who believe that this sort of thing is good in the long term to bring about the change they want. shrug
I’d probably advise that much like I did, you give that screed little attention. When someone is in the midst of a mouth-foaming fit of hatred for someone that doesn’t know they exist and to whom they are little more than a fly on the windshield it’s not surprising when they delve into illogical statements.
That sort of thinking is why you lose. There is a lot more going on than that.
OK, let’s talk about the judiciary. The whole judiciary, not just the Supremes. Have you noticed that the Senate is refusing to confirm Obama’s judicial appointments?
You have to build a party and take back Congress. Your state got gerrymandered? Get a referendum on the ballot to redraw districts, if you have to stand in the hot sun with a sheaf of petitions your own self.
I’m getting annoyed at low sights and defeatism.
Do they have* negative *predictive value?
If someone thinks fucking the SCOTUS for the next two or three decades, is a reasonable price to pay for incrementally getting a fringe candidate a marginally better showing, I’d suggest that person probably has no idea what that entails.
Both sides aren’t equal. The GOP isn’t evil, but it might as well be for the real damage its policies cause human beings. Giving them a blank check is and total control is utterly insane.
All this so some Bernie-fan (mind you, I’m a fan myself) shrugs his shoulders and says, “Well, abortion is outlawed, and civil rights is in the toilet, there’s no minimum wage, we’re at war with Iran, there’s no safety net, 50 million people are uninsured, but Bernie got 15% as a write-in candidate!”
i would think that because of the supreme court issue, most diehard Sanders supporters will hold their noses and vote for Clinton. I also expect that if the race continues to be as close as it is with Sanders getting support above 40 percent in most other states then Clinton will have to make some concessions to Bernie’s platform to woo his voters.
Bernie has achieved something great, which is getting new generation involved in politics, I’d like to think most of them will stay involved even if Bernie doesn’t win.
I was thinking about this, and I think the same. But I get the sense that if that happens, they’ll shrug and say, “It’s not my fault. If the establishment and their candidates couldn’t put up people who’d fight for me, then why is it my responsibility to vote for them? This disaster is on them for being bought by Wall Street and supporting neocons in disguise like Clinton.”
It is a quandary for as even the left wing socialist counterpunch.org writes:
Smash Clintonism: Why Democrats, Not Republicans, are the Problem
nvm
Your (well, their) point is (will be) well taken, but it overlooks the fact that it is EVERYONE’S responsibility to deny the Whiite House to the Republicans.
I issued a decree, not a magic spell.
I’m barely even a Democrat these days. I’m angry at the party and have been for a while. People I thoughtlessly assumed were basically decent turned out to use state violence in racist ways. I can vote for Bernie; even if he gets mathematically eliminated, & it’s just a protest vote in my state’s primary. But voting for Bernie will not only be voting against a woman I believe to be dangerously corrupt & ultimately unreliable, but also challenging the present form of the party–the Democratic Party of HRC. I reject a party whose government fires on first responders when it assassinates people in other countries. I despise the old guard of “moderate” Democrats that have ties to killer cops in my state.
I can maybe work with Democrats in 2018 to run against a President Trump or Kasich’s record. But it’s going to be hard for me to support Hillary at any level, in any way, at any point, given that I already think she prostituted the State Dep’t to profit Bubba. I can’t effectively campaign for her, I won’t even vote for her myself.
So, yeah, while I might vote for her if it looks like Missouri’s contest is close, a Green protest vote is about where I’ll be if she’s the nominee.
You’re right that we need to build a Party and Take back Congress. But that’s a goal that needs a long term plan. It’s not happening in its entirety this year.
Even if everything breaks right for the Dems this year, there aren’t enough seats up for grabs to take the House. We might - might - get lucky and get the Senate back, but that’s only if we get lucky. We can and should start working to elect more dems in more seats. That’s important. But that’s not going to take back Congress this year.
OTOH, we only get a chance to elect a President once every four years. This is our chance and our priority has to be to capitalize on it.
I agree that we need to focus on building the whole party, but given that we aren’t going to solve that problem in this one election, we need to make sure that we don’t give away a the store in the short term.
And, by the by - what exactly is Bernie doing to convert his supporters into votes for down ticket Dems? I would like to see more effort in that direction from him, actually.
Look, I’m a Commie and I would be delighted to see Bernie beat Hillary. While I’m sure she’d be a reasonably fine President, in that she’s sane and smart, I still think that she’s a very weak candidate, in that she’s compromised and unlikable.
But you can’t simultaneously argue that Hillary will lose to the Republicans while Bernie while win, when in fact, Bernie is losing to Hillary.
If Bernie can’t beat the compromised and unlikable Hillary, then he is not the best person for the job of beating the Republicans (even though the Republicans are on the verge of nominating the pigfucker.). Yes, I know Hillary is stacking the deck in her favor, and lying through her teeth. The Republican candidate will do that, too. Bernie needs to conquer, not just come close.
If Bernie wins, I will be delighted. If Hillary wins, I will be disappointed. If a Republican wins, we will all be living in the last days of the American Experiment. However rotten Hillary is, there is simply no comparison with the Republican contenders.
Being angry and disappointed with the Democrats is a personal luxury. We need to use our energy to accomplish our goals. Being angry and sabotaging ourselves by refusing to vote for whoever wins the nomination is just playing into the hands of our enemies.
Sure you can. I’ll hold off on any opinion of whether it actually is true, but it certainly can be true. Primary electorates are not the same as general election electorates, and one specific party’s primary electorate certainly is not the same as the general election electorate.
Agreed it could be true, even if I think in this case it is not. Typically that dynamic works the other direction: the candidate that can pass the muster a party’s base in the primaries because they take the more extreme position is not as appealing in the general to the entire population. But theoretically it could be that a candidate who taps into an across party lines anti-establishment zeitgeist would do better in a general than the less extreme candidate who has the support of those who believe working by way of the systems that exist who dominate a primary process.
Question: Will BERNIE sit it out if not nominated? And here I am not so much even talking about working for the party’s presidential candidate, but working to help relatively progressive Democrats win down ticket races. Let us assume that he has pushed Hillary leftward on her way to the nomination, does he follow up with working to create the Congress that can actually implement those progressive agenda items? Will he work to create the turnout that is required to make progressive agenda items more than empty words? Or feel that is helping a party that he is not really a member of and not bother unless he is at its head?
I really don’t think so (assuming “sit it out” means “refuse to endorse Clinton”–if you mean “not run third party,” I really think so 
).
Bernie is a politician with decades of experience, and his experience shows him to be fairly sober in enacting policies he wants. Thinking he’ll sit out if not nominated implies that he’s suffered a major change of character, that he’s stopped being a far leftist who looks for ways of furthering a leftist agenda, and has started being a far leftist with megalomania who only cares about self-aggrandizement.
The only way his campaign is in keeping with his history is if he’s primarily interested in furthering a leftist agenda, and entered the race in order to push the conversation to the left.
I don’t wager on these boards normally, but I’ll issue a sig line wager with anyone interested. I believe Sanders will lose the Democratic nomination and will formally endorse Clinton. I think he will urge his supporters to support Clinton at the same time, and he will urge them to work for progressive, electable candidates at all levels. I think he’ll have done all this by the Democratic Convention.
Anyone disagree with me?
I agree with you. I don’t think Bernie himself feels the vitriol for Clinton that his supporters do.
LHOD, you will, I’m sure, be glad to know that my mighty predictive powers indicate that your expectation is correct.
Okay, but this cuts both ways. If Bernie is the nominee, your vote is similarly impotent to help him win the general election.
I think Bernie will endorse Clinton and support her in the general election. However, I see him doing more campaigning for Senate and House candidates rather than for Clinton. Bernie would be an effective advocate for Russ Feingold, Tammy Duckworth, and a few other winnable Senate races.
Forget it, Shayna. The Hillary supporters here care about actual data as much as Young Earth Creationists do.