A humble bow to the skillful arguments and sizzling logic of the above posters. It only confirms my long-held belief that Heinlein fans tend to be above average. While it is **possible **to read his stuff just for the adventure, it would be hard to ignore the cogent comments he weaves so skillfully into the plots.
As further proof of Heinlein’s anti-fascist nature, one of my favorite quotes from * The Notebooks of Lazarus Long * is “Beware of strong drink; it can make you shoot at tax collectors…and miss.”
Also I greatly enjoyed one of his essays in ** Expanded Univers ** in which he offers different possible systems based on the criterion for exercise of the franchise. IIRC, one suggestion was to let only women vote, and he talked about the situation in his mother’s time when women did not have the vote. He also suggested systems in which a vote cost an ounce of gold or couldn’t be made unless the voter solved a quadratic equation…
Loved his work, miss it deeply. The gentleman had both intelligence and a deep sense of honor. Who among us can claim as much?
Let’s recap for a moment. You start a thread by insulting a respected author with an accusation of being a fascist, in the title. Then you call him a racist, and “support” it with a first grade level misunderstanding of a shallow reading of a single work, which you seem unable to comprehend. After that you get all huffy because I call you a moron.
Seriously though- tclouis have proven himself to be less-than-equipped to debate this issue. It has been entertaining reading, but I believe that the OP has been answered (with vigor), and that the poster has no other legitimate arguments left.
I’m starting a new thread in General Questions on the “Science Fiction University” question.
Sorry if I seemed to have “left the building,” but I really don’t do a lot of online during the workweek. (Started this thread while home sick from work.)
It’s just that if I spend too much time online, I start to feel…creepy…
I know this insult is about a week old, but I just saw it and there is no statute of limitations on warnings. So let me remind you that if you feel you must insult somebody, do it in the Pit, not in Great Debates.
I loved Friday, but there is a point near the end of the book that makes me think that Virginia finished it while Robert was so ill. I can’t quite put my finger on it, butit’s as if the style changes…
Interesting thread. My least favorite Heinlein book is Farnham. I agree that it isn’t racist. I just find the future society really unpleasant, and didn’t much like any of the characters.
One of the things I like in Heinlein’s books is the way he will occasionally toss in something to just make it very plain just how different from ours is the future society he’s devised. In the early book Beyond this Horizon he has two straight men comparing and discussing their shades of nail polish. In the late book The Cat Who… he has a straight male quite happy with the assortment of pastel jumpsuits his wife buys him. In one of the juviniles, the narrator is shocked at the laxity he sees on his return to earth: his father would never have allowed one of his dauthers to come to the dinner table hatless!
I’ve often wondered why so many people seem to be offended at the idea (in Starship Troopers) of a society in which the right to vote must be earned. I wouldn’t go for it if the only way to earn the vote was by military service, but so long as there are an assortment of choices, and so long as everyone has the right to serve, I think it might just be a good idea. If it had to be earned, maybe it would be valued.
By the way, can anyone sort out for me just what elements in which books are considered to be fascist? Or is the term just being used to mean “something I don’t like”?
In Starship Troopers, it’s mentioned that something like 1 in 20 people who choose to serve the government to get to vote actually end up in combat roles. I think it’s a great idea.
I know I’m getting in here a bit late too, but I just have to point out that in one of first few chapters of hmmmm, “The Number of the Beast”, Heinlein had Zeb describe the above scheme… I see an interesting possibilty here…
There’s something I say to people every night at work, tclouie… I say, let your conscience be your guide.
While at Arisia (one of the two big Boston area sf conventions) last weekend I picked up a copy of “Robert A. Heinlein: A Reader’s Companion” by James Gifford (Nitrosyncretic Press, Sacramento CA 2000). It had some interesting things to say:
Of Farnham’s Freehold (p. 84):
“This controversial novel raised arguments inside and outside the science fiction community with its brutal depiction of racism. Unlike the controversies over “Stranger in a Strange Land” and “Starship Troopers”, few critics have been willing to defend “Farnham’s Freehold” because of the aggressive and touchy nature of its issues”
He also notes that “There is not a single black woman character in the entire novel.” This had completely escaped my notice. I’ll bet I’d have noticed if I were female.
Of “Sixth Column” it says:
“He [Heinlein][says] also reslanted the story to remove “certain racist aspects”. After reading the Campbell version [“All”, which was at long last published in “The Space Beyond” by Pyramid books in 1976], it is hard to know exactly what he meant by these comments.” According to Gifford, Heinlein didn’t read Campbell’s story, but was given the outline verbally. Maybe it seemed more racist as Campbell told it.Gifford also thinks that the name of hero “Whitey” Ardmore has racial connotations that cannot have been entirely coincidental.
While only 1 in 20 might get combat duty, IIRC ** all ** the duties were highly dangerous in some way. The point was to risk your life for the protection/advancement of the society. So very badly disabled people etc. would end up taking part in hazardous medical trials or something of that sort. It’s been a long time since I read the book so correct me if I’m wrong.
Back onto the topic: I’ve read a lot of the Juvenile stories and liked them but gave up on TNotB. I just really couldn’t stand the way everyone knew everything. If someone had to speak Russian, or know how to dissect an alien…no problem, one of them seemed always to have the exact skill/experience required. It kind of killed the drama for me.
Atarian, you asked for correction. I reread it last year for the first time in some long period, along with the comments on it in Grumbles from the Grave.
Quite simply, in the Starship Troopers society, you volunteer for public service. It’s your choice whether to volunteer or not; there’s no draft. You’re entitled to put in your preferences on what you’d like to do, much as a recruiter today takes your preferences. But once you’ve volunteered, you go where the government sends you and do what they specify. It might be file clerk in an underground warehouse safe from H-bombs, it might be mobile infantry on the front lines. The 1-in-20 figure was from Heinlein’s commentary on the story, indicating that 19 times in 20 you’d end up in civil service. But if you’re young, without special skills, and with that particular attitude that can be turned into patriotic combat readiness, it’s likely to be the military, though only about 1 in 20 end up with it.
And you earn your franchise by completing a term of voluntary public service – whatever it is you end up doing. Not necessarily the military. But you need to have put in your time serving your country in some way to earn a share in its governance.
The Gifford book I cite above makes the point that, although Heinlein says in “Expanded Universe” that it is repeatedly stated in “Starship Troopers” how the system works, in fact the book does not really emphasize it all that much. For the full explanation you should read EU and “Grumbles from the Grave”. It seemed to me pretty clear how the system works in the book just from reading ST, but it could be that a lot of people didn’t get the message simply BECAUSE it wasn’t drilled into their heads, despite what Heinlein says.
One thing to remember about Heinlein: He despised the draft. He was strongly against it during the Vietnam war. He believed that a government never has the right to force its citizens into combat for any reason.
The only thing we heard about disabled folks is during the scare speech that Juan and friends were given. I don’t have the book at hand but there’s a line to the effect of “Everyone is allowed to join up. Even if you’re blind, legless and only have one arm, you can still join and we’ll find something for you to do. Even if it’s counting the fuzz on a caterpiller by touch.” (approx. quote)
By the way, I’ve read the HeinleinL A Reader’s Companion book that CalMeachum’s mentioned and it’s very well done. There’re some excerpts from it on the author’s homepage