# For the All-Star Break: Your Team's Quintessential Pitcher **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 10, 2012, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828 "2012-07-10T20:19:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/21 "2012-07-11T15:22:18Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Jeffrey\_Lebowski](#): > > As long as Satan’s All Stars get to start Ron Guidry, 1978 edition. …I’d definitely watch that game. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/22 "2012-07-11T15:43:52Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Right, do we get one guy at his absolute peak for one game against Satan’s All Stars (which, obviously, is just the current roster of the New York Yankees, but whatever)? > > Then the Reds can have Seaver, because the Mets are going with Doc Gooden, 1985 edition. Well, I think you have to take the guy at his peak _with that team_. The Reds can’t have the Mets’ version Seaver. Tom Seaver was still awesome in Cincinnati, so he’s a very valid choice. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/23 "2012-07-11T15:45:02Z")
I’m pretty sure Randy Johnson could scare a team full of Satan’s all stars. Where do demons go when they die from a 95 mph fastball to the skull? ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/24 "2012-07-11T16:59:16Z")
I like the additions of Mike Scott (1986, 8.0 WAR) and J.R. Richard (1980, right up until the stroke: 2.7 WAR, but in only 17 appearances; 1.90 ERA, 174 ERA+, 113.2 IP, 0.924 WHIP, 119 K ) to the Astros’s list. I’d add Roger Clemens’s 2005 season (7.6 WAR, 1.87 ERA, 226 ERA+, 211.1 IP, 1.008 WHIP, 185 K). Just criminal how many wins he was robbed of by the Astros’s abysmal run support. WAR really loves [Dierk](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/dierkla01.shtml)’s 1969 season (8.5 WAR—single season leader for the Astros, 2.33 ERA, 152 ERA+, 305.1 IP, 1.022 WHIP, 232 K). ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/25 "2012-07-11T17:06:32Z")
> [@Ichbin\_Dubist](#): > > **Milwaukee Brewers:** Teddy Higuera by WAR, Jim Slaton by wins As a Brewer fan, I would be tempted to go with either Rollie Fingers or Pete Vukovich, but I’m not sure that the stats are there to back them up. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/26 "2012-07-11T17:19:15Z")
If I had a hundred guesses I never would have come up with Jaime Moyer as the Mariners all time wins leader. I completely forgot he was in Seattle for a whole 10 years. ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/27 "2012-07-11T22:21:15Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Kid Nichols was great, I’m sure, but playing a pretty different game. If you want just one, it’s Spahn, but I’m happy to throw Niekro, Maddux and Smoltz as well. Just to pick a fight, I say you have to go Maddux over Spahn. Both wins and WAR are matters of longevity, and the former is also heavily era-dependent. While Maddux didn’t play his entire career for the Braves, his best years (11 of 'em, so it’s not like we’re talking just a handful of great years) were with Atlanta, where his ERA+ far outstripped Spahn’s. His career ERA+ is higher than Spahn’s, too, so it’s not just a peak-year effect. He also had the finest single year by any Brave ever (in terms of ERA+), as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/28 "2012-07-11T22:57:45Z")
I don’t quite understand the criteria. Can they have been traded to another team? If so, the quintessential Marlins pitcher is Kevin Brown, or Josh Beckett if he never had blister problems. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/29 "2012-07-11T23:14:58Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > This is interesting as a Dodger fan because the answer for that team is Koufax and it doesn’t matter what the numbers say. Even if he wasn’t the best all time by the numbers he was/is THE pitcher. Which makes the question of how we pick much more interesting than it is for hitters. Koufax, for example, is hurt by a short career but (I think) had the best peak. > > Wins shouldn’t have anything to do with it though. Against Stan’s All-Stars, I would start Orel Hershiser, circa 1988. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/30 "2012-07-12T03:41:17Z")
> [@Ichbin\_Dubist](#): > > **Los Angeles Angels:** Chuck Finley I think that Satan would put [Tawny Kitaen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawny_Kitaen#Legal_troubles) on his roster for that game, on general principles. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/31 "2012-07-12T03:56:25Z")
> [@MilTan](#): > > Just to pick a fight, I say you have to go Maddux over Spahn. Both wins and WAR are matters of longevity, and the former is also heavily era-dependent. While Maddux didn’t play his entire career for the Braves, his best years (11 of 'em, so it’s not like we’re talking just a handful of great years) were with Atlanta, where his ERA+ far outstripped Spahn’s. His career ERA+ is higher than Spahn’s, too, so it’s not just a peak-year effect. He also had the finest single year by any Brave ever (in terms of ERA+), as far as I can tell. In fairness, you could also make Spahn the Milwaukee Braves rep, and Maddux the Atlanta rep. Again I’d have to say there’s more to “quintinessial pitcher” than WAR and wins. The quintissential Mariners pitcher is Randy Johnson; Jamie Moyer had a lot of good years there but Johnson is the guy you think about, the guy who won a Cy Young there and who pitched so heroically in 1995. For the Royals it unquestionably is Saberhagen, who was injured but was so magnificent when healthy and who was the World Series MVP in their magical year. ---
**Author:** ![Kiros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/439d5e/32.png) [@Kiros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiros)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/32 "2012-07-12T13:42:07Z")
Maybe I’m just too young to have really appreciated the ‘great’ Clemens years - and on top of that, I’m old enough to remember his tanking at the end of his Sox career, and then his mercenary travels - but I’d go with Pedro for the Red Sox. There were just so many memorable performances while he was in Boston: the Yankees 17K one-hitter, the Gerald Williams one-hitter, the six inning no hit playoff relief appearance, the five Ks in the AS game at Fenway, and on, and on. Then he was on the '04 team on top of that. Plus, you know, he’d plunk any of Satan’s All-Stars in the ass without thinking twice about it. ---
**Author:** ![Paintcharge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paintcharge/32/7946_2.png) [@Paintcharge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paintcharge)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/33 "2012-07-12T14:58:04Z")
**Kiros** as a lifelong Sox fan, 40 + years, my first glove was a Fred Lynn autograph model, I completely agree. ---
**Author:** ![Ichbin\_Dubist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/51bf81/32.png) [@Ichbin\_Dubist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ichbin_Dubist)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/34 "2012-07-12T15:09:18Z")
> [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](#): > > I don’t quite understand the criteria. Can they have been traded to another team? I’d say “of course” … Seaver was traded to the Reds, but is a no-doubter as the Mets’ iconic pitcher, the guy they’d have a statue of if they didn’t have a statue of Jackie Robinson. The criteria are personal and emotional, the WAR stuff was just a starting point. For two thirds of these teams I could have pulled most of the (post-20s) names from memory, but for some teams (like the Brewers) no one came to mind, or I couldn’t think of away to narrow it down (like Carlton and Robin Roberts). Hence, wins and WAR as a starting point. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/35 "2012-07-12T15:45:30Z")
> [@Kiros](#): > > Maybe I’m just too young to have really appreciated the ‘great’ Clemens years - and on top of that, I’m old enough to remember his tanking at the end of his Sox career, and then his mercenary travels - but I’d go with Pedro for the Red Sox. There were just so many memorable performances while he was in Boston: the Yankees 17K one-hitter, the Gerald Williams one-hitter, the six inning no hit playoff relief appearance, the five Ks in the AS game at Fenway, and on, and on. Then he was on the '04 team on top of that. > > Plus, you know, he’d plunk any of Satan’s All-Stars in the ass without thinking twice about it. Speaking as a Yankees fan… I agree that Pedro Martinez’s peak years were better than almost ANY pitcher’s peak years, including those of Roger Clemens. But since Roger’s peak was mighty good, and he stayed at that peak a lot longer than Pedro (albeit, perhaps, by cheating), I think Roger rates a little higher. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/36 "2012-07-12T15:50:53Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > As a Brewer fan, I would be tempted to go with either Rollie Fingers or Pete Vukovich, but I’m not sure that the stats are there to back them up. Again, speaking as a Yankees fan… In his prime, Teddy Higuera’s screwball was a thing of beauty. While he’s no Hall of Famer, he’s definitely the best starting pitcher the Brewers ever had. And he was ESPECIALLY effective against my Yankees. I don’t know if it ever happened, but at one time, he was poised to break the record for best winning percentage against the Yanks… a record that had previously been held by Babe Ruth! ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/37 "2012-07-12T20:53:55Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > In his prime, Teddy Higuera’s screwball was a thing of beauty. While he’s no Hall of Famer, he’s definitely the best starting pitcher the Brewers ever had. No argument on that from my end. For his first three or four seasons, in particular, Higuera was pretty amazing. Unfortunately, the Brewers weren’t that good during most of Higuera’s good years. That’s why, when the OP said, “your team’s iconic pitcher”, my heart goes back to Vuckovich and Fingers, two of the key pitchers during the only really good run (1978-1982) the Brewers had ever had, up until the past few seasons. ---
**Author:** ![Brainiac4](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brainiac4/32/3534_2.png) [@Brainiac4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brainiac4)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/38 "2012-07-20T03:01:06Z")
For the Twins, I have to go with Bert Blyleven. A case could be made for Frankie “Sweet Music” Viola, but he wasn’t primarily a Twins pitcher. You could go with Kevin Tapani or Brad Radke, but neither of them are inspiring. Blyleven is in the HOF, and none of the others are. And his post-player career in the broadcast booth with the Twins has cemented his place as an iconic Twins pitcher. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/39 "2012-07-20T11:43:07Z")
> [@Brainiac4](#): > > For the Twins, I have to go with Bert Blyleven. A case could be made for Frankie “Sweet Music” Viola, but he wasn’t primarily a Twins pitcher. You could go with Kevin Tapani or Brad Radke, but neither of them are inspiring. > > Blyleven is in the HOF, and none of the others are. And his post-player career in the broadcast booth with the Twins has cemented his place as an iconic Twins pitcher. I’d still argue that, as a Twin, Johan Santana was better than any of them. ---
**Author:** ![Wargamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Wargamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wargamer)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828/40 "2012-07-20T13:52:28Z")
> [@MilTan](#): > > Just to pick a fight, I say you have to go Maddux over Spahn. Both wins and WAR are matters of longevity, and the former is also heavily era-dependent. While Maddux didn’t play his entire career for the Braves, his best years (11 of 'em, so it’s not like we’re talking just a handful of great years) were with Atlanta, where his ERA+ far outstripped Spahn’s. His career ERA+ is higher than Spahn’s, too, so it’s not just a peak-year effect. He also had the finest single year by any Brave ever (in terms of ERA+), as far as I can tell. And remember that Maddux was posting these awesome seasons in the height of the steroid era. So I would argue that for adjusting for context (which, admittedly ERA+ does), Maddux far outstrips Spahn. Of course any pitcher that causes a catcher to say the best way to catch him is to wait for the ball to stop rolling then walk over and pick it up, as Phil Neikro did to Bob Uecker, has to get some serious consideration as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-all-star-break-your-teams-quintessential-pitcher/627828.md?page=3)