# For the good of the country, Bush and Cheney should resign. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 9, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-good-of-the-country-bush-and-cheney-should-resign/320868 "2005-09-09T19:53:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-good-of-the-country-bush-and-cheney-should-resign/320868/181 "2005-09-13T23:21:45Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > **John Mace** , a bit upthread you claimed that there had not been a second terrorist attack against the United States since September 11. You were mistaken. [There was a little dust-up involving some anthrax in late 2001](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attack). Nobody has been brought to justice for that one, either. > > Bush delenda est. Yeah. But they started about 1 week after the towers fell, and I think most people lump those two together. It was either part of the same attack, or some whack-job trying to capitalize on things. Surely no one expected Bush to make things safer 1 week after the attacks. on the WTC. But you’re right, there was another attack and I shoudl have noted it, regardless of the extenuating circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-good-of-the-country-bush-and-cheney-should-resign/320868/182 "2005-09-13T23:24:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > 'Bout time you started providing some facts and context yourself then, huh? If you have any specific requests for facts or context for any facts I’ve given, fire away. Otherwise, that’s just a cheap-shot driveby of no import. And a tu quoque that’s not even supported by a _quoque_ on my part. ---
**Author:** ![zeeny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zeeny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zeeny)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-good-of-the-country-bush-and-cheney-should-resign/320868/183 "2005-09-13T23:38:48Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If you have any specific requests for facts or context for any facts I’ve given, fire away. Otherwise, that’s just a cheap-shot driveby of no import. And a tu quoque that’s not even supported by a _quoque_ on my part. Funny, but I thought I quoted and responded to your ‘quoque’ (although it was not originally addressed to me). Do ‘guests’ not count? I’m sorry to put you on the spot, but the question of state and local culpability comes up quite often, using the same example you have posted, but then scurries into the woodwork when my questions are asked. I’d really like to hear an answer of some kind, assuming you are sincere. If you don’t know, then that’s fine, but let us be clear about it, okay? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2005, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-good-of-the-country-bush-and-cheney-should-resign/320868/184 "2005-09-13T23:55:15Z")
> [@zeeny](#): > > I’d really like to hear an answer of some kind, assuming you are sincere. If you don’t know, then that’s fine, but let us be clear about it, okay? > [@](#): > > This quite nicely side-steps my previous post, doesn’t it? > > - Who should have stepped up to drive those busses out, knowing they could not return (to save their own families, or whatever) > > - If those busses had been commandeered, and driven out of parish limits, where would/should they have taken those people? > > I’m still waiting for answers to these questions. Your previous post wasn’t addressed to me… I don’t know who should have driven the buses-- that should have been determined long before this particular disaster. I assume it would be some city or state emergency response personell. The fact that they wouldn’t be able to save their own families is sad, but that’s part of the job. Presumably such people would be more informed of the need to evacuate their families and would already have done so. Commandeered by whom? I would hope that a city lving largely below sea level would have a well honed evacuation plan in the event of a breached levee. It was to late on Sunday to figure all this stuff out. Earlier in this thread (or in other related threads) \*\*Shayna \*\*posted the City/State Evacuation Plan. Go look there and see what it says. In any event, parking the buses ANYWHERE above sea level would have been better than leaving them where they were. Keep in mind, too, that the buses were not too useful after the flooding started. The real use for the buses should have been to evacuate the city before the flooding started. But the mayor didn’t issue a mandatory evacuation order until pretty late in the game. By then I suspect it was a mad scramble. One of the reasons government officials issue things like “state of emergency” or “mandatory evacuation” is that it gives them authority to do things they wouldn’t normally have-- like park the damn buses in somebody’s yard if they had to. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-good-of-the-country-bush-and-cheney-should-resign/320868/185 "2005-09-14T00:04:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Nobody? Really? You sure? I don’t want to pay for New Orleans’ levees. I’m already paying for my levees. My city has more linear miles of levee’s than New Orleans will ever have and it was all financed locally. The Levees were not the problem, the lack of flood gates (on the canals) were the problem. The canals connect up to either the Mississippi River or the lake or both. Without floodgates it is impossible to stop the flow of water until sea level is reached. Not one news reporter has picked up on this. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-good-of-the-country-bush-and-cheney-should-resign/320868/186 "2005-09-14T00:15:19Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The Levees were not the problem, the lack of flood gates (on the canals) were the problem. The canals connect up to either the Mississippi River or the lake or both. Without floodgates it is impossible to stop the flow of water until sea level is reached. Any guess as to why they were never built? Has anybody ever proposed building floodgates in NO? Was the idea shot down for lack of funding? Or for some other reason? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-good-of-the-country-bush-and-cheney-should-resign/320868/187 "2005-09-14T00:18:39Z")
Thought you guys would love [this](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9324891/): > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON - President Bush said Tuesday that “I take responsibility” for failures in dealing with Hurricane Katrina and that the disaster raised broader questions about the government’s ability to respond to natural disasters as well as terror attacks. > > “Katrina exposed serious problems in our response capability at all levels of government,” Bush said at joint White House news conference with the president of Iraq. > > “To the extent the federal government didn’t fully do its job right, I take responsibility,” Bush said. > > … > > The president was asked whether people should be worried about the government’s ability to handle another terrorist attack given failures in responding to Katrina. > > “Are we capable of dealing with a severe attack? That’s a very important question and it’s in the national interest that we find out what went on so we can better respond,” Bush replied. > > He said he wanted to know both what went wrong and what went right. I don’t know. Seems like a pretty classy admission to me. Its pretty rare for a president to stick his chin out like this and admit so directly that the ultimate blame for a Federal fuckup is his. I guess the ‘chimp’ has his moments, ehe? Or…whats the meme emerging on this statement? He didn’t need to say he was to blame…certainly the American people seem split between blaming him and blaming the local guys. He’s a lame duck and could just say ‘screw you America’…least thats what I’ve gotten from this thread. So…whats the angle here? -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-good-of-the-country-bush-and-cheney-should-resign/320868/188 "2005-09-14T00:25:15Z")
Actually, that came out more sarcastic than I intended. Let me rephrase: What do people think of Bush’s statement? Interesting or Ho Hum…or something else? I’m very curious on everyones take. Myself…I’m impressed inspite of myself (or you can just believe that I’m a closet Bush lover if you like). Afaik he didn’t have to take this route…and I’m frankly surprised he did. Certainly he SHOULD take the blame for the fuckups at the Federal level…actually taking it though is beyond my own expectations. -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-good-of-the-country-bush-and-cheney-should-resign/320868/189 "2005-09-14T00:29:07Z")
I think he figured he had nothing to lose-- everyone who was going to blame him had already done so. If he was in the habit of accepting responsibility, he wouldn’t have had to go out of his way to do so this time. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-good-of-the-country-bush-and-cheney-should-resign/320868/190 "2005-09-14T01:12:36Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t want to pay for New Orleans’ levees. I’m already paying for my levees. My city has more linear miles of levee’s than New Orleans will ever have and it was all financed locally. I’ve never been to New Orleans, but I have been through Dayton many, many times. I think the answer may be that America can do just fine without Dayton. New Orleans may be another story. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![zeeny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zeeny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zeeny)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-good-of-the-country-bush-and-cheney-should-resign/320868/191 "2005-09-14T01:19:18Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Your previous post wasn’t addressed to me… Fair enough. But if you had a definite opinion on the matter, one would think you would have responded to such a post. > [@](#): > > I don’t know who should have driven the buses-- that should have been determined long before this particular disaster. I assume it would be some city or state emergency response personell. The fact that they wouldn’t be able to save their own families is sad, but that’s part of the job. Presumably such people would be more informed of the need to evacuate their families and would already have done so. Presumably? Imagine you are one of those people. What dictate would have been adequate to ‘inform’ you prior to the official order informing everyone else? Remember this is a city used to hurricane warnings that don’t amount to anything requiring evacuation. ‘Sad’ doesn’t explain why it wasn’t included in the ‘plan’. > [@](#): > > Commandeered by whom? I would hope that a city lving largely below sea level would have a well honed evacuation plan in the event of a breached levee. It was to late on Sunday to figure all this stuff out. One would hope, but it appears that hope was not to be. At best, the ‘plan’ was a work in progress. Local officials have admitted to that already. But as I’ve said, every level of govt was aware of that. The feds knew that the local govt would have been overwhelmed under the most dire conditions. Should FEMA have been ready to act on that or not? > [@](#): > > Earlier in this thread (or in other related threads) **Shayna** posted the City/State Evacuation Plan. Go look there and see what it says. I’ve read it. It is as vague as I’ve characterized it. Do you disagree? Have _you_ read it? If you were a local official, would you have been satisfied with that plan - that it could be reasonably implemented? > [@](#): > > In any event, parking the buses ANYWHERE above sea level would have been better than leaving them where they were. > > Keep in mind, too, that the buses were not too useful after the flooding started. The real use for the buses should have been to evacuate the city before the flooding started. But the mayor didn’t issue a mandatory evacuation order until pretty late in the game. By then I suspect it was a mad scramble. One of the reasons government officials issue things like “state of emergency” or “mandatory evacuation” is that it gives them authority to do things they wouldn’t normally have-- like park the damn buses in somebody’s yard if they had to. Perhaps this point is one of the things that the Mayor will have to answer to. I don’t know - I’m still compiling information on all of this. But IMO, it is a minor point in the midst of everything else I am saying now. What I do know is that the Mayor effected an _80% evacuation_, in the _first ever_ issued _mandatory_ evacuation order. What the projected number was for such an event, I don’t know. Do you? There are a number of questions about the official plan that remain unanswered: - Were there evacuation centers ready and able to house the evacuees? - If not, what was the alternate plan for those people? - How long (as in - how many days worth of provisions) were the evacuees meant to be sustained by local resources before the federal govt kicked in with either additional resources or evacuation to another location? Can anyone answer those questions definitively? ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-good-of-the-country-bush-and-cheney-should-resign/320868/192 "2005-09-14T01:20:56Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > I’ve never been to New Orleans, but I have been through Dayton many, many times. I think the answer may be that America can do just fine without Dayton. New Orleans may be another story. 🙂 Actually, the entire nitrate collection (thousands of film prints) for the Library of Congress is located at Wright-Patterson AFB in Dayton, OH. So until they move to their new facility in Culpepper, VA in a few years, I would vehemently disagree with you. (After that, though… 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-good-of-the-country-bush-and-cheney-should-resign/320868/193 "2005-09-14T01:42:34Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If you have any specific requests for facts or context for any facts I’ve given, fire away. Ahem. All you have done is dismiss any facts or context that anyone else has brought up, while offering none of your own. Is that your idea of advancing debate? > [@](#): > > Otherwise, that’s just a cheap-shot driveby of no import. And a tu quoque that’s not even supported by a _quoque_ on my part. So tell us what “facts and context” you \*have \* contributed here. I don’t see anything but more of the petulance you’re susceptible to every time you get shown up. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-good-of-the-country-bush-and-cheney-should-resign/320868/194 "2005-09-14T05:33:51Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > What do people think of Bush’s statement? He hedged it with the “To the extent the federal government didn’t fully do its job right” preface, which makes it a wimp-out. It’s not unlike when he backpedaled on his promise to can anyone in his Administration who blew Valerie Plame’s identity, with the lame-ass “If somebody committed a crime” qualifier. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-good-of-the-country-bush-and-cheney-should-resign/320868/195 "2005-09-14T06:02:51Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Ahem. All you have done is dismiss any facts or context that anyone else has brought up, while offering none of your own. Is that your idea of advancing debate? I didn’t dismiss any facts. I just said that without understanding more detail it’s hard to know if the 100 buses they DID provide was a superhuman effort, or a complete failure, or somewhere in between. Which is it, and how do you know? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-good-of-the-country-bush-and-cheney-should-resign/320868/196 "2005-09-15T23:15:14Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > I’ve never been to New Orleans, but I have been through Dayton many, many times. I think the answer may be that America can do just fine without Dayton. New Orleans may be another story. 🙂 hahahahahahahahahah. That’s funny. Yah, 105% humidity, the highest crime rate in the US and enough pumping stations to make it the world’s largest beer filter. What was I thinking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-good-of-the-country-bush-and-cheney-should-resign/320868.md?page=9)