# For The Religious: What about other gods? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 27, 2014, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442 "2014-02-27T19:40:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/121 "2014-03-11T17:27:47Z")
My beliefs are not unshakeable. They are not irreversible. I can be unconvinced. I question my beliefs constantly. Right now, this is what I believe. I constantly consider all evidence. It doesn’t matter whether we would disagree about my evidence. I am 100% responsible for myself. I am not trying to convince you of anything to include what I believe. I have read much of what the atheists and people who believe differently from me here have written and I consider it carefully. Some is more convincing to me than others, but I consider it all. Eyewitness testimony is often wrong. I have been an eyewitness to crimes and have decided after thought that my testimony is tainted because what is seen in a flash from a single perspective is often mistaken. I have testified at times that I could not be sure about many of the details and I am sure I have pissed off a prosecutor at least once, but I have to do what I believe is right. When I speak of experiences, I am not speaking of some momentary flash as the robber blasts past me after robbing a 7-11. I am speaking of coincidence after coincidence against all probability. Let me give an example. I have been struggling with a parent that I care deeply about who had to be placed in a nursing home. The stress and horror of this event was bordering on more than I could bear and was seriously affecting my health. I prayed in the car for help. At that moment, I turned on Christian radio, which I am loathe to do and actually just let the radio scan for it. I don’t like any Christian radio at all, nor any TV preachers, but for whatever reason, I did. At that moment, a preacher who I don’t particularly care about was discussing that Christians must turn their concerns over to the Lord. Could that have been a complete and utter coincidence? Absolutely. Was it a pretty big one, you betcha. The last time I turned on some preacher on radio was years ago and I would rather listen to rap and stick large fiery needles in my eyes so for me to do that and to get that response is a pretty big coincidence. As an isolated incident, while pretty weird, it isn’t that convincing. When I add that to the 100,000 other coincidences, a pattern emerges. That moment added to my evidences, but again, nobody else can understand just how weird that moment was because they aren’t me. You can question my evidences all day long, but again, I have been believing in Jesus for 30 years and while all those coincidences mean nothing to nobody else, they ARE my life. What in the world would I believe over that? ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/122 "2014-03-11T17:32:15Z")
Just to clarify…what the preacher said on the radio was a coincidence, but I applied what he said and while it has still been a rocky road and a struggle, I have found comfort despite what has had to be done. I am a born worrier, but not as much this week. Go figure, but I believe what I believe because I WAS THERE. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/123 "2014-03-11T17:46:19Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > My beliefs are not unshakeable. They are not irreversible. I can be unconvinced. I question my beliefs constantly. Right now, this is what I believe. I constantly consider all evidence. I confess, I don’t see how that isn’t in conflict with; [QUOTE=Mostly Useless] I have never understood it, but at times, I have had people try to tell me that my facts were wrong when I was there to see it myself. Sorry, no amount of bullshit no matter how well delivered could ever shake my set of facts in that case. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Let me give an example. I have been struggling with a parent that I care deeply about who had to be placed in a nursing home. The stress and horror of this event was bordering on more than I could bear and was seriously affecting my health. I prayed in the car for help. At that moment, I turned on Christian radio, which I am loathe to do and actually just let the radio scan for it. I don’t like any Christian radio at all, nor any TV preachers, but for whatever reason, I did. At that moment, a preacher who I don’t particularly care about was discussing that Christians must turn their concerns over to the Lord. Could that have been a complete and utter coincidence? Absolutely. Was it a pretty big one, you betcha. That seems rather likely, if anything. I’m not quite sure from your story whether you were deliberately scanning for just any Christian station, or whether you just turned it on and allowed it to scan for whatever the next channel might be. Obviously if you were deliberately looking for a Christian station, that you had considerable mental and physical stress affecting you would seem to be a pretty big reason to overcome your normal disinterest. And even if it was entirely at random - i’m guessing you’re American? Statistically speaking, i’d say it wouldn’t be a huge surprise to select a random radio station and find it to be a Christian one. That seems like a fairly commonplace event, really. I know i’ve done it. > [@](#): > > As an isolated incident, while pretty weird, it isn’t that convincing. When I add that to the 100,000 other coincidences, a pattern emerges. That moment added to my evidences, but again, nobody else can understand just how weird that moment was because they aren’t me. Why wouldn’t we be able to understand? Probability isn’t personal. If I throw a dice and get a six, that doesn’t mean that you’re not able to work out what the chance of that happening was because you’re not me. I could roll ten sixes in a row, and how weird that is is fairly workable for most people, i’d guess. > [@](#): > > You can question my evidences all day long, but again, I have been believing in Jesus for 30 years and while all those coincidences mean nothing to nobody else, they ARE my life. What in the world would I believe over that? Again, my initial point was not to question your evidence. It was to question your use of your conviction itself as evidence. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/124 "2014-03-11T17:57:11Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > There have been times in my life that people have tried to convince me that the ‘facts’ in some incident were different from what I believed. […] I have never understood it, but at times, I have had people try to tell me that my facts were wrong when I was there to see it myself. Sorry, no amount of bullshit no matter how well delivered could ever shake my set of facts in that case. […] At the end of the day, my experiences are better proof to me because I was there. I have seen what I have seen. Once again, I’m not asking you why you believe in your image of God. I’m asking you why you assert that everyone else’s image of God is the “wrong” one. Why do you keep dodging the question? ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/125 "2014-03-11T17:57:55Z")
In all reality, you raise a fair point regarding my conviction. As I stated, what I experience directly is irrefutable regarding the basic facts. Could I be wrong, mistaken, goofy in the head? Sure. At the same time, my outlook onto the world from this body is pretty much all I have and I trust it. Someone could come along with video evidence that could turn my opinion and I would adjust and move on. Regarding the radio incident, sure I probably was reaching out for something even though I don’t normally do that. What occurred afterwards was not in my control at all and in the end, delivered a mightly helpful hand in time of need. Coincidentally, the Bible mentions that God does just exactly that. In my life, I have had precisely two incidents that I know some 20 and 30 years later were (in my mind) unquestionably the hand of God. The remainder of incidents have been coincidences (piled upon others and others). I think I see one of your objections and I agree, you raise a valid point. My conviction is evidence of nothing neither to myself nor anyone else. Conviction itself is a result of something else. The evidence that has convinced me and given me such conviction is the piles of experiences. The things that I have seen somewhat similar to my example. Some were more impressive to me than others. Each could be questioned and examined, but in the end after I have done that, my experiences add for me to a reason to have conviction. By the ways, Czarcasm, it appears that we have hijacked your thread; I apologize. Perhaps some of this has some minor value. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/126 "2014-03-11T17:59:37Z")
Show me where I asserted that the beliefs of others were the wrong one. I have spoken of nobody’s beliefs but my own. I would not assert that others are wrong because I can’t. Does that dodge the question? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/127 "2014-03-11T18:01:05Z")
Yeah, sorry about the hijack. Back to your regularly scheduled thread. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/128 "2014-03-11T18:03:31Z")
Let me be careful to not dodge the question, then. I have spoken of my beliefs. I have explained them, defended them and perhaps even been a bit too personal about them. I don’t believe that I have questioned anyone else’s beliefs nor suggested that they are wrong? Can you show me where I have? ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/129 "2014-03-11T18:51:38Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > I don’t believe that I have questioned anyone else’s beliefs nor suggested that they are wrong? > > Can you show me where I have? How about here: > [@MostlyUseless](#): > > I can’t think of anything in the Bible that says that God gives credence to other gods. The Bible and specifically God mention other gods, but it seems to be more along the lines of ‘your fake little statues aren’t God.’ Aside from the Bible, which is merely one religious text out of thousands worldwide, what evidence do you have that your God is the only one that exists? ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_Merton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Frank\_Merton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_Merton)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/130 "2014-03-12T10:52:34Z")
We are all what we are because that is what we are, but it does behoove us to at least be informed about others and to know why they are what they are. I might take that a step further and say a little skepticism about our personal beliefs is a good sign that we are something other than just an indoctrinated fool. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/131 "2014-03-12T11:07:52Z")
So let me see if I understand your point, you are saying that because I suggested that the Bible never specifically seems to confirm the existence of other Gods that I have somehow said someone else’s beliefs are wrong? At best, that is extremely, possibly torturously strained. As for examining my own beliefs, I think I have discussed that here quite adequately. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/132 "2014-03-12T21:56:03Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > So let me see if I understand your point, you are saying that because I suggested that the Bible never specifically seems to confirm the existence of other Gods that I have somehow said someone else’s beliefs are wrong? > > At best, that is extremely, possibly torturously strained. No, the problem is that you’re assuming the words of the Bible are anything more than just mere words. You’re not alone, of course – but just because everyone else decides to jump off a cliff, yada yada. > [@MostlyUseless](#): > > As for examining my own beliefs, I think I have discussed that here quite adequately. Quite thoroughly, you have. But that’s because you’re still avoiding the question: WHY do you think your faith is the only one that counts as real? ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_Merton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Frank\_Merton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_Merton)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/133 "2014-03-13T09:55:23Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > So let me see if I understand your point, you are saying that because I suggested that the Bible never specifically seems to confirm the existence of other Gods that I have somehow said someone else’s beliefs are wrong? > > At best, that is extremely, possibly torturously strained. > > As for examining my own beliefs, I think I have discussed that here quite adequately. Do you think your approach is persuasive or are you just declaiming? ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/134 "2014-03-17T19:57:56Z")
I think that I have made my point completely. That is, I can’t speak to the validity nor the non-validity of others’ beliefs. I am not suggesting that my faith is the only one that counts as real; I am saying that it is the only one that counts TO ME. I am not trying to be persuasive. I answered the questions asked, but you seem to be insisting that by being convinced in my beliefs that somehow translates to dismissing someone else’s beliefs. The fact is that my personal beliefs are entirely subjective that is what separates beliefs from facts. In short, believe as you will, I will believe as I do and I cannot possibly speak to whomever might be right. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/135 "2014-03-17T20:13:02Z")
At the risk of dragging this thread back on-topic, **Malacandra** said upthread > [@](#): > > There aren’t any other gods. It is, however, perfectly possible for someone who was worshipping “another god” to have been seeking after some aspect of the real one, and even finding something that they were looking for. , which seems to be one of the more common beliefs out there. Does this mean that their belief is just as valid as yours but with a different label, or does it mean that other believers _almost_ have it right? ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/136 "2014-03-17T21:09:06Z")
From my experiences, believe in the God of Israel and Jesus, however my only evidence is entirely subjective to myself. I am convinced of my beliefs for myself. I can’t prove the existence of my God to anyone else’s satisfaction. Neither can I disprove the validity of their belief in their God(s). Yes, I believe that for each individual, their belief in God(s) or their unbelief in any God is entirely valid. How could it be any other way? For me, I laugh at those who think that some stupid crystal rock has any power. I presume that there are plenty who think my beliefs are just as stupid. This is entirely subjective and they shouldn’t care what I think. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/137 "2014-03-17T21:12:12Z")
> [@MostlyUseless](#): > > From my experiences, believe in the God of Israel and Jesus, however my only evidence is entirely subjective to myself. I am convinced of my beliefs for myself. I can’t prove the existence of my God to anyone else’s satisfaction. Neither can I disprove the validity of their belief in their God(s). > > Yes, I believe that for each individual, their belief in God(s) or their unbelief in any God is entirely valid. > > How could it be any other way? For me, I laugh at those who think that some stupid crystal rock has any power. I presume that there are plenty who think my beliefs are just as stupid. This is entirely subjective and they shouldn’t care what I think. I’m only concerned with your beliefs, not what evidence may or may not exist to support them. ---
**Author:** ![Frank\_Merton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Frank\_Merton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank_Merton)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/138 "2014-03-18T07:01:17Z")
I think spiritual experiences are mostly delusions, and people seek them out largely they way they seek out other addictive experiences. I’ve had them myself and found them delightful, much like winning the lottery, and something one wants to repeat. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/139 "2014-03-18T07:48:59Z")
Broadly speaking they are either 1) mythological, 2) historical figures, or 3) corrupted versions of the Triune God (ie the God of Judaism, Islam, Mormonism etc.) ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2014, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-the-religious-what-about-other-gods/682442/140 "2014-03-18T11:07:34Z")
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