# For those who believe Hell is an actual place, was it part of the original creation? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 1, 2006, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-hell-is-an-actual-place-was-it-part-of-the-original-creation/346582 "2006-03-01T06:05:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-hell-is-an-actual-place-was-it-part-of-the-original-creation/346582/21 "2006-03-02T23:39:26Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > VI:183-185 is, at least, an honest statement of his views - he’d rather serve under a tyrant (and I think we can agree that Milton’s God _is_ a tyrant) and be safe, than take the chance of defeat in order to gain personal glory and self-determination, Satan’s goal in the whole Enterprise. Except Abdiel’s point is that God isn’t a tyrant, and so that following God isn’t servitude, but Satan is setting himself up to be one, so following Satan would be. If you look at his whole speech in VI, bolding mine: > [@](#): > > Apostat, still thou errst, nor end wilt find > Of erring, from the path of truth remote: > **Unjustly thou deprav’st it with the name > Of Servitude to serve whom God ordains, > Or Nature; God and Nature bid the same, > When he who rules is worthiest, and excells > Them whom he governs. This is servitude, > To serve th’ unwise, or him who hath rebelld > Against his worthier, as thine now serve thee, > Thy self not free, but to thy self enthrall’d**; > Yet leudly dar’st our ministring upbraid. > Reign thou in Hell thy Kingdom, let mee serve > In Heav’n God ever blessed, and his Divine > Behests obey, worthiest to be obey’d, > Yet Chains in Hell, not Realms expect: mean while > From mee returnd, as erst thou saidst, from flight, So, it’s not that Abdiel’s serving a tyrant. God has the right to rule, because God “excells them whom he governs”, and it’s natural and good to obey Him. It’s servitude to “serve the unwise, or him who hath rebelled against his worthier” ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-hell-is-an-actual-place-was-it-part-of-the-original-creation/346582/22 "2006-03-03T00:25:35Z")
> [@](#): > > God and Nature bid the same, > When he who rules is worthiest, and excells > Them whom he governs. This, I think, is the core of the issue. I think it’s safe to say that Milton didn’t himself endorse this position; he was one of the staunchest republicans and opponents of the “Divine Right” theory of monarchy, even in his revolutionary times. However, I accept that Abdiel regards it as legitimate - obviously a good Aristotelian, who thinks that there are such things as “natural leaders” and “natural servants”. A view that has had unfortunate consequences in human history, but at least an understandable one. Of course, we could argue that God is, almost by definiton, greater than any of His creatures, and therefore can legitimately claim our service; I must admit that, while God may be a better candiate for “natural ruler” than King Charles I was, I still can’t wholeheartedly endorse this view myself. I would never say that being _obliged_ to serve is a good thing; service should come from the free choice of the servant, not merely from the “legal” claims of the ruler, and still less from the fact the ruler is more powerful. Remember also that Satan rebels, not against God, but against being made to serve “Messiah”. As this is depicted in V:600-615, “Messiah” or “The Son” is _not_ God, but another creation of God, of the same (apparent) type and order as the angels. Even if Satan’s rebellion against God, his Creator, is unjustified, I think he has a case for objecting to be placed in the service of another _creature_. Oooh! V:613-615. > [@](#): > > Cast out from God and blessed vision, falls > Into utter darkness, deep engulft, his place > Ordain’d without redemption, without end. This brings us back on-topic, just. Evidence that Hell “dates” from at least this point in the narrative, before Satan had taken any active steps to rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-hell-is-an-actual-place-was-it-part-of-the-original-creation/346582/23 "2006-03-03T02:17:06Z")
By “Fall” I meant the fall of Satan. I refer to the Garden of Eden events collectively as the “Apple Incident”. ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-hell-is-an-actual-place-was-it-part-of-the-original-creation/346582/24 "2006-03-03T18:11:10Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > Oooh! V:613-615. > > This brings us back on-topic, just. Evidence that Hell “dates” from at least this point in the narrative, before Satan had taken any active steps to rebellion. Quoting a couple of additional lines: Him who disobeys, Me disobeys, breaks union, **and that day,** Cast out from God and blessed vision, falls Into utter darkness, deep ingulfed, his place **Ordained without redemption, without end.** God knew hell might be needed, but this still does not say it was pre-created. (Of course if you read Milton’s God as having created a creature (Satan) he knew would sin, then the theological difficulty the OP is asking about is embodied right there–what difference does it make when hell was created if God knows in advance he will need to create it?) The second bolded bit relates to what **ralph** asked–can Satan change his mind? Milton is contradictory on this point, IMHO because, despite several statements like the bolded part, he also has the following in Book IV (Satan speaking): Me miserable! which way shall I fly Infinite wrath, and infinite despair? Which way I fly is Hell; myself am Hell; And, in the lowest deep, a lower deep Still threatening to devour me opens wide, To which the Hell I suffer seems a Heaven. **O, then, at last relent: Is there no place Left for repentance, none for pardon left? None left but by submission**; and that word Disdain forbids me, and my dread of shame Among the Spirits beneath, whom I seduced With other promises and other vaunts Than to submit, boasting I could subdue The Omnipotent. Ay me! they little know How dearly I abide that boast so vain, Under what torments inwardly I groan, While they adore me on the throne of Hell. With diadem and scepter high advanced, The lower still I fall, only supreme In misery: Such joy ambition finds. **But say I could repent, and could obtain, By act of grace, my former state**; how soon Would highth recall high thoughts, how soon unsay What feigned submission swore? Ease would recant Vows made in pain, as violent and void. For never can true reconcilement grow, Where wounds of deadly hate have pierced so deep: Which would but lead me to a worse relapse And heavier fall: so should I purchase dear Short intermission bought with double smart. **This knows my Punisher; therefore as far From granting he, as I from begging, peace**; All hope excluded thus, behold, in stead Mankind created, and for him this world. So farewell, hope; and with hope farewell, fear; Farewell, remorse! all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good; by thee at least Divided empire with Heaven’s King I hold, By thee, and more than half perhaps will reign; As Man ere long, and this new world, shall know. This stuff is reaaly wonderful reading. It also leaves it unclear whether or not Satan could change his mind. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-hell-is-an-actual-place-was-it-part-of-the-original-creation/346582/25 "2006-03-04T13:35:13Z")
What does the **Bible** have to say about hell? ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-hell-is-an-actual-place-was-it-part-of-the-original-creation/346582/26 "2006-03-04T15:09:16Z")
> [@Rucksinator](#): > > What does the **Bible** have to say about hell? Very little. There is a brief mention in Numbers of of “The Pit” or Sheol. That was an underground place where the souls of the dead went. It would have been a part of the 7 day creation I suppose. There is also a mention in Isaiah that I can’t at the moment come up with. There was also the reference in Matthew that **Tevildo** referred to in his post. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-hell-is-an-actual-place-was-it-part-of-the-original-creation/346582/27 "2006-03-04T15:59:34Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > One question i have always had; can SATAN change his mind? suppose he were to repent…and acknowledge his error…would God 9in his infinite wisdom) grant some sort of pardon? Ya gotta figure that satan has been on the sh\*t list for so many eons…he must get mighty tired of seducing humans, tempting people to break commandments, etc. > So, given an infinite amount of time, would satan come around? I asked this question some time ago [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=346818&highlight=fallen) Cunctator tells us that based on Catholic teachings that no, fallen angels cannot be forgiven. (Assuming that saten is a fallen angel.) [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6838698&postcount=3) ---
**Author:** ![Tevildo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Tevildo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tevildo)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2006, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-hell-is-an-actual-place-was-it-part-of-the-original-creation/346582/28 "2006-03-04T16:42:16Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Very little. There is a brief mention in Numbers of of “The Pit” or Sheol. That was an underground place where the souls of the dead went. It would have been a part of the 7 day creation I suppose. There is also a mention in Isaiah that I can’t at the moment come up with. Isaiah 24:21-22. > [@](#): > > And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. This is probably as close as we’re going to get to Old Testament support for the traditional Christian/Miltonic conception of Hell. Note that: (a) The fallen angels and evil humans are cast into “the pit” _after_ the end of the world, not immediately after their fall or death, and (b) It’s not permanent - after a suitable time of punishment, all the wicked (including Satan, if he’s one of the “high ones that are on high”) will be “visited” - what that involves isn’t certain, it may be release or annihilation, but the passage clearly refutes any concept of Hell as eternal torment. There’s also Isaiah 14:4-19 (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > That thou shalt take up this **proverb** against the **king of Babylon** , and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers. He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth. The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us. **Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth** ; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. This passage supports the idea of “Hell” as just the abode of the dead, not as a place of punishment - “pit”, in the rest of the passage, refers more to a hole in the ground rather than the elaborate tomb that a ruler would expect as a literal grave. Note especially that “Lucifer” does _not_ refer to Satan, but to the king of Babylon to whom the passage is addressed. There’s also our old favourite, Psalm 140:9-10 : > [@](#): > > As for the head of those that compass me about, let the mischief of their own lips cover them. Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again. That, however, seems either to refers to a literal, physical pit on earth, or to be intended as a metaphor. Numbers 16:28-31 quite definitely refers to a literal pit (miraculous, but still an actual hole in the actual ground): > [@](#): > > And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind. If these men die the common death of all men, or if they be visited after the visitation of all men; then the LORD hath not sent me. But if the LORD make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the LORD. And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: There’s Job 33:27-28 : > [@](#): > > He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not; He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light. But this (especially considering other uses in Job, such as 17:16) is more likely to refer to the literal grave and physical death, rather than the “spiritual death” of Hell. Most of the other uses of “pit” in the Old Testament (Psalm 30:3, Psalm 55:23, Isaiah 14 as quoted above, Ezekiel 31:16, etc) similarly refer to the literal grave. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-hell-is-an-actual-place-was-it-part-of-the-original-creation/346582/29 "2006-03-05T06:09:59Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > (a) The fallen angels and evil humans are cast into “the pit” _after_ the end of the world, not immediately after their fall or death, and > (b) It’s not permanent - after a suitable time of punishment, all the wicked (including Satan, if he’s one of the “high ones that are on high”) will be “visited” - what that involves isn’t certain, it may be release or annihilation, but the passage clearly refutes any concept of Hell as eternal torment. This is very similar to the Islamic notion of the place IIRC. In Islam Hell is a place so detached from existence and terrifying that Satan will not go near it but knows he will eventually be sent there for punishment, and it is also a place where, like Purgatory, souls will be cleansed so that they can return to God eventually. Very few will spend eternity there (only Hitler, Manson and Katie Couric are specifically named), the concept of eternal damnation being one I could never grasp and found super interesting. What is the contemporary orthodox Jewish concept of Hell (if there is one)? Reform and liberal Jews I believe envision a place with three clones of their mother and no premium cable channels. ---
**Author:** ![Rucksinator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/898d66/32.png) [@Rucksinator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rucksinator)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2006, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-hell-is-an-actual-place-was-it-part-of-the-original-creation/346582/30 "2006-03-05T15:49:55Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > … Very few will spend eternity there (only Hitler, Manson and Katie Couric are specifically named)… I know that this is a stupid question, but exactly how much of that is a joke? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-hell-is-an-actual-place-was-it-part-of-the-original-creation/346582.md?page=1)