# For Those Who Believe Homosexuality Is Wrong: What Should Homosexuals Do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2002, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353 "2002-09-23T22:38:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/61 "2002-09-26T11:22:09Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by The Great Unwashed_ > **At the time one could not be prosecuted on the evidence of an accomplice alone!** > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Sparc_ > **Turing was convicted based on testimony by a man he had picked up in a bar who subsequently stayed with him a few nights.** Hmmm… ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/62 "2002-09-26T11:23:15Z")
So was it his confession that clinched it? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_great_unwashed/32/4791_2.png) [@The\_Great\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/63 "2002-09-26T12:03:33Z")
**Turing was convicted of performing “unnatuaral” (homosexual) acts, and NOT of being a homosexual.**_…and this makes enough of a difference to warrant mentioning it._ As I said, I offered a small correction, maybe it wasn’t worth mentioning, I’m not the arbiter of worthiness, I just did. Banging on about it endlessly now might be equally worthless, or even worth less. **Turing “elected” to have the “treatment” as part of his sentence.** _…and this somehow makes it more justifiable._ Absolutely. Enforced administration of personality altering substances is to my mind an outrageous, heinous obscenity, banging some one up for a couple of years is just mundanely obscene. **Citation please if you want to link this directly with his suicide (I’m sure it added to his general pissed-offness).**_…A causal link seems tenuous or unlikely._ No, there may well be a causal link, but I’m not aware of one. Particularly my first post questioned the link between the chemical treatment and his suicide: **“He was sentenced to hormonal treatment with estrogen for it; he developed breasts, became suicidally depressed, and killed himself in '54”** Maybe no causal link is implied, but I read one. The wider issues (loss of position, respect, liberty) clearly would have had a damaging effect that I am perfectly happy to just accept would have contributed significantly to AT’s suicidal state of mind. I’m willing to bet that there’s not a single thing that I am trying to say here that you wouldn’t agree with, but let’s not argue anymore (at least not in this thread) it is way off topic. ---
**Author:** ![Theobroma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b5a626/32.png) [@Theobroma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Theobroma)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/64 "2002-09-26T13:54:25Z")
I can’t get page two to load, so if I am repeating someone, my apologies. For the record: I am not Christian or gay. Any physical expression of love between consenting adults is just fine with me. However, I am answering in the spirit of the OP. I take the question to be, “How should those who have entirely unacceptable sexual longings live their lives?” I would suggest a comparison in unacceptability between gay love (to bible-literalist Christians) and pedophilia (in modern life). What should pedophiles do? I would say, if asked, that pedophiles may fantasize all they like, but must never, ever, give in and have sex with children. I could understand (if not obey) a similar argument from the bible-literalist Christians: a gay person may fantasize all they wish, but must never, ever, give in and have homosexual sex. Bear in mind that what we consider pedophilia has not always been unacceptable. I am thinking of the teenage boy-older man pairs in ancient Greece, but there may be other examples. I don’t know how the teenage boys felt about the whole thing, but as it was apparently common and accepted at the time, the shame and self-loathing that such relations would inflict on the teen now would not have been a factor. But now? Whew, just don’t do it! No matter how difficult it may be for you, just don’t do it! Sorry! Now, doesn’t that sound kind of like **H4E** ’s response? Makes sense to me. (in the spirit of the OP) ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/65 "2002-09-26T14:31:50Z")
“It may be lack of exposure, ignorance, or just plain prejudice, but I have a much harder time with changing genders than I do homosexuality. I don’t understand how one can be wrong and the other can be right.” —Well, I would be glad to clear up any lack of exposure or ignorance, but I’m afraid there’s nothing I can do about the prejuduce. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/66 "2002-09-26T16:11:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cjhoworth \* > \*\ ***Kirkland** , much as I like you, I asked people to _keep this civil_ at the beginning of this thread. Saying, “Fundamentalism is a religion dedicated entirely to the condemnation of the decent, the innocent and the beautiful of the world.” doesn’t fit my criteria for civil. \*\* Okay, sorry. I would consider that as civil a thing to say about fundamentalism as any fundamentalist has ever said about me, but I apologize for crossing a line. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/67 "2002-09-26T16:18:42Z")
Let’s all say it together, folks - _gender identity and sexual orientation are two seperate issues._ It took me a while to wrap my mind around that as well, but there it is. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/68 "2002-09-26T16:22:02Z")
**Eve** , since, in my case, I’ve found prejudice can be cured by education and exposure, you may be able to do more about the former than you think. I am willing to learn. **Kirkland** , apology accepted. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/69 "2002-09-26T16:32:53Z")
Or, “what you are” and “who you like to sleep with” have nothing to do with each other. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/70 "2002-09-26T16:40:22Z")
Oh. _That_, I never had a problem with, which is one reason why I can fathom gender reassignment as a viable solution for someone who is homosexual, but thinks homosexuality’s wrong. Then again, to me, gender identity doesn’t have much to do with a lot of things such as ability with math, logic, or babies. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/71 "2002-09-26T16:46:59Z")
" . . . I can fathom gender reassignment as a viable solution for someone who is homosexual . . . " —Ah, but you see, that’s the crux of the matter. A man who’s attracted to other men is still a man; a lesbian is still a woman. Me, I’m not much attracted to _anyone_ anymore, but I am still mentally and emotionally female and always have been. ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/72 "2002-09-26T17:04:06Z")
_{sigh}_ **Eve** , you have a mighty task ahead of you. Here, have a cookie to help you along the way… 😉 Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/73 "2002-09-26T18:15:52Z")
> [@](#): > > _Posted by **puddleglum** in response to me_: > You seem to know a whole lot more about the people mentioned in the study than I do. Nowhere in what I read does it describe the people studied as neurotic or self-loathing. Is there more information on the study at another site or are you generalizing from your own experience? > The psychogists and psychiatrists who conducted the studies were suggesting that the people mentioned became well adjusted and exclusively straight. After the APA declassified homosexuality as a disorder most research in this area was discontinued. I have even heard it asserted that some forms of therapy are harmful to those who undertake it. In such an atmosphere it is easy to see why such therapies would be abandoned. I looked over the material. I saw statistical indications of people who self-identified as “homosexual” before and “heterosexual” after – but (as the writer himself was quick to indicate) no clear definition of what those terms meant. I saw his raising ethical questions regarding what a psychoanalyst ought to be doing; I saw him raising questions of sexual desire vs. moral precept. In short, I did not see him dealing directly with what exactly you cited his presentation in support of. I **assumed** based on fifty years of reading and observing social attitudes in 20th Century America that the neurosis and self-loathing were present – it is very rare for someone with a good mental self-adjustment to decide that he needs psychotherapy. In one case I recognized a name as being someone I know from past reading to have been running a staunch campaign that any homosexual is _ipso facto_ mentally disordered. I saw a bunch of individual people’s reports, with no indication of how this compares quantitatively to the number of people seeking therapy. I did not see any suggestion of how these particular therapists were selected – were they a random sample, or the ones whose “results” most closely met the writer’s desire for data? I suspect strongly that a wide variety of people on this board could adduce a quite larger number of anecdotal accounts suggesting just the opposite results. To you and to anyone else interested, I’d put forth the challenge: are there any unbiased statistical studies supporting or refuting the view, which I infer from his post is **puddleglum** ’s, that exclusively gay people can make a healthy adjustment to heterosexuality? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/74 "2002-09-26T19:16:41Z")
Would someone please amend my last post to read: > [@](#): > > which is one reason why I can_ **not** _ fathom gender reassignment as a viable solution for someone who is homosexual **Eve, Esprix** , please accept my apologies for any misunderstanding. CJ ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/75 "2002-09-26T19:21:13Z")
It’s actually a difficult challenge, **Polycarp[**, because both sides are arguing from a completely different set of precepts. If you take as a given that homosexuality is bad, and should be cured, then any success in converting someone concerned about their same-sex attraction is considered proof that “gays can change”. Or, as the [American Psychiatric Association](http://www.psych.org/pract_of_psych/copptherapyaddendum83100.cfm) states in their position paper on the subject, > [@](#): > > The “reparative” therapy literature uses theories that make it difficult to formulate scientific selection criteria for their treatment modality. This literature not only ignores the impact of social stigma in motivating efforts to cure homosexuality; it is a literature that actively stigmatizes homosexuality as well. “Reparative” therapy literature also tends to overstate the treatment’s accomplishments while neglecting any potential risks to patients. APA encourages and supports research in the NIMH and the academic research community to further determines “reparative” therapy’s risks versus its benefits. Oh, and from the [American Psychological Association](http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html), > [@](#): > > **Can Therapy Change Sexual Orientation?** > > No. Even though most homosexuals live successful, happy lives, some homosexual or bisexual people may seek to change their sexual orientation through therapy, sometimes pressured by the influence of family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable. However, not all gay, lesbian, and bisexual people who seek assistance from a mental health professional want to change their sexual orientation. Gay, lesbian, and bisexual people may seek psychological help with the coming out process or for strategies to deal with prejudice, but most go into therapy for the same reasons and life issues that bring straight people to mental health professionals. > > **What About So-Called “Conversion Therapies”?** > > Some therapists who undertake so-called conversion therapy report that they have been able to change their clients’ sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual. Close scrutiny of these reports however show several factors that cast doubt on their claims. For example, many of the claims come from organizations with an ideological perspective which condemns homosexuality. Furthermore, their claims are poorly documented. For example, treatment outcome is not followed and reported overtime as would be the standard to test the validity of any mental health intervention. > > The American Psychological Association is concerned about such therapies and their potential harm to patients. In 1997, the Association’s Council of Representatives passed a resolution reaffirming psychology’s opposition to homophobia in treatment and spelling out a client’s right to unbiased treatment and self-determination. Any person who enters into therapy to deal with issues of sexual orientation has a right to expect that such therapy would take place in a professionally neutral environment absent of any social bias. I’m still looking for statistical analyses, but seeing as the only people conducting reorientation therapy are only releasing the data that makes them look best, I’m not sure I’ll find anything. Suffice it to say that if neither one of the APA’s has found any evidence that reorientation therapy works, I doubt if I’m going to find it either. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/76 "2002-09-26T19:37:42Z")
Ah! Typo. That explains it, **cjhoworth** , I couldn’t think _what_ you were talking about! ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2002, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/77 "2002-09-27T01:45:56Z")
I don’t want to start a new thread because I’m going out of town on Saturday but I did come accross this article and am curious as to all of your opinions. [High School Students Shown Homosexual Films](http://www.rense.com/general29/assess.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2002, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/78 "2002-09-27T05:35:29Z")
It’s incredibly biased and has no citations of any factual information. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2002, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/79 "2002-09-27T13:03:22Z")
It looks to me like high school kids were “forced” to watch two films about not being biased against gays—what’s the big deal? You might think they’d had to sit through _Forrest Hump_ or _A Queer and Pleasant Stranger_. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2002, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353/80 "2002-09-27T14:52:08Z")
What **Esprix and Eve** said. I can’t find any facts. From what (secret?) **agentfroot** tells me about my old high school and from what I’ve seen, calling people “fag”, speculating about their virginity and/or ability to date is still pretty common. This is hardly encouraging tolerance. My weekend’s a bit booked too, but it is worth starting a thread about. CJ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-believe-homosexuality-is-wrong-what-should-homosexuals-do/129353.md?page=5)