# For those who consider 'pirating' theft, would you 'pirate' a disagreeable work? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715 "2011-10-15T04:37:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ModernPrimate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@ModernPrimate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ModernPrimate)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/21 "2011-10-15T18:34:45Z")
Wow, how can so many people not understand the concept of copyright? It’s a valid concept and you are really missing something if you can’t understand it. I have pirated material left, right and centre, but at least I don’t try to pretend it’s not theft. It is clear theft. It isn’t as bad as stealing something from a shop in many, many ways, but it is still theft. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/22 "2011-10-15T22:58:28Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Real pirates are way cooler than online thieves, but the principle is the same. No, the principle is not remotely the same. Real pirates forcibly rob people of their (extremely valuable) possessions under penalty of _death._ There is absolutely no comparison between this, and someone downloading a song or movie. The song/movie still exists, the original creator still owns it, nobody has been threatened, harmed or killed…what has happened is an illegal copy has been made. If pirates were able to use duplication technology to instantaneously replicate a ship that they wanted to obtain for themselves, thousands of miles away from the actual ship, without anybody knowing or caring…then “the principle” would be “the same.” ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/23 "2011-10-15T23:29:47Z")
Piracy is not theft nor is it piracy. Piracy involved peg legs, ships, parrots and 15 men on a dead man’s chest yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum. thief it taking something of a known and prepurchased value while espionage could cover the taking of secret material and ideas. What the current offense is best case guesstimated loss of income, which is very dubious at best. In the OP no it would not be unethical, because your audience would effectively have zero interest of financially supporting the artist but the work of that artist should be made as public as practical as to show it’s potential shortcomings. ---
**Author:** ![ModernPrimate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@ModernPrimate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ModernPrimate)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/24 "2011-10-15T23:50:52Z")
Well, there is at least also some sort of “voyeurism” involved if you pirate a work that you “would find disagreeable”. I mean why should you pirate it at all if you find it disagreeable? To make assumptions and judge what other people like? ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/25 "2011-10-15T23:54:56Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > This is all just trying the rephrase things so piracy doesn’t sound so much like theft. One of the premises you set for this discussion is that piracy _is_ theft. I meant to say something like kanicbird, i.e. that without the controversial elements, the work would be worthless to the ‘pirate’ so no potential benefit was lost. > [@kanicbird](#): > > In the OP no it would not be unethical, because your audience would effectively have zero interest of financially supporting the artist but the work of that artist should be made as public as practical as to show it’s potential shortcomings. > [@Lamia](#): > > If neither reviews nor other people have described the work as offensive, the hypothetical pirate has no real reason to believe that it is offensive and thus would not be justified even if there were some ethical loophole for offensive works. Well, all you can learn from other people is that they found it offensive, not that you’d find it offensive, though… it might give you enough suspition to pirate it. > [@colonial](#): > > Pirated music is the permanent possession > of the asshole who pirated it, and the asshole never has to stand in line to listen to it. Well, they can delete it with just two clicks. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/26 "2011-10-15T23:56:23Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > No, the principle is not remotely the same. Real pirates forcibly rob people of their (extremely valuable) possessions under penalty of _death._ There is absolutely no comparison between this, and someone downloading a song or movie. The song/movie still exists, the original creator still owns it, nobody has been threatened, harmed or killed…what has happened is an illegal copy has been made. > > If pirates were able to use duplication technology to instantaneously replicate a ship that they wanted to obtain for themselves, thousands of miles away from the actual ship, without anybody knowing or caring…then “the principle” would be “the same.” The principle is that taking something that doesn’t belong to you is wrong. How you took it may or may not involve other wrongs. Whether or not other wrongs are involved doesn’t matter to the OPs question. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/27 "2011-10-16T00:09:58Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The principle is that taking something that doesn’t belong to you is wrong. How you took it may or may not involve other wrongs. Whether or not other wrongs are involved doesn’t matter to the OPs question. Would you consider jay walking to be theft? If you say yes, then you’ve diluted theft to have little meaning, if you say no, then your definition is inconsistent because jay walking is taking a right of way that doesn’t rightfully belong to you. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/28 "2011-10-16T00:12:02Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > Pirated music is the permanent possession of the asshole who pirated it, > and the asshole never has to stand in line to listen to it. > [@Namkcalb](#): > > Well, they can delete it with just two clicks. This is what you call sophistry. It is not meant to be a step forward in the search for truth, but is submitted for the sole purpose of scoring a cheap point in debate. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/29 "2011-10-16T00:16:51Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Would you consider jay walking to be theft? If you say yes, then you’ve diluted theft to have little meaning, if you say no, then your definition is inconsistent because jay walking is taking a right of way that doesn’t rightfully belong to you. Jaywalking is not taking away a right, it is claiming a right where none exists. ---
**Author:** ![Namkcalb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c89c15/32.png) [@Namkcalb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Namkcalb)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/30 "2011-10-16T00:18:09Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > This is what you call sophistry. > > It is not meant to be a step forward in the search for truth, but is submitted > for the sole purpose of scoring a cheap point in debate. Not really, a ‘pirate’ in this case would only want to see or hear the horrible thing once, before deleting it. It’s a distinct thing from ‘pirating’ something enjoyable, as most pirates would just stash it on their harddrive ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/31 "2011-10-16T00:20:20Z")
Making a copy of something in order to enjoy it is no different from making a copy of it in order to make sure that you hate it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/32 "2011-10-16T00:31:35Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > Jaywalking is not taking away a right, it is claiming a right where none exists. What does this even mean? ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/33 "2011-10-16T00:39:25Z")
> [@Agent Towers](#): > > No, the principle is not remotely the same. Real pirates forcibly rob people of their (extremely valuable) possessions under penalty of death. There is absolutely no comparison between this, and someone downloading a song or movie… \*\*There is more than one kind of “real” pirate. another, non-maritime version has been around since Shakepeare’s time: \*\* [Piracy Copyright Infringement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement#cite_note-Panethiere_p2-1) (from link, emphasis added): > [@](#): > > **The practice of labelling the infringement of exclusive rights in creative works as “piracy” predates statutory copyright law**. Prior to the Statute of Anne 1709, the Stationers’ Company of London in 1557 received a Royal Charter giving the company a monopoly on publication and tasking it with enforcing the charter. **Those who violated the charter were labelled pirates as early as 1603**. **After the establishment of copyright law with the 1709 Statute of Anne in Britain, the term “piracy” has been used** to refer to the unauthorized manufacturing and selling of works in copyright. Article 12 of **the 1886 Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works uses the term “piracy” in relation to copyright infringement** , stating “Pirated works may be seized on importation into those countries of the Union where the original work enjoys legal protection.” ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/34 "2011-10-16T00:46:33Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > Not really, a ‘pirate’ in this case would only want to see or hear the horrible thing once, before deleting it. > > It’s a distinct thing from ‘pirating’ something enjoyable, as most pirates would just stash it on their harddrive It remains sophistry to insist on having to qualify the phrase “permanent possession” to reflect the fact that a possessor may destroy his possession. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/35 "2011-10-16T00:48:15Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Would you consider jay walking to be theft? If you say yes, then you’ve diluted theft to have little meaning, if you say no, then your definition is inconsistent because jay walking is taking a right of way that doesn’t rightfully belong to you. That is absurd. Jaywalking is a technical violation of the law which does not involve taking anything. Online piracy is no different than stealing a DVD from a store. I don’t like the copyright laws that create this situation for the convenience of the sellers, and I don’t like jaywalking laws. But I wouldn’t jaywalk and claim that I hadn’t broken any law because a policeman didn’t stop me from doing it, or because I only went halfway across the street and the came back, or because I didn’t like crossing the street. And I wouldn’t claim that stealing a DVD from a store isn’t wrong because I didn’t like the contents of the DVD. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/36 "2011-10-16T00:49:10Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > What does this even mean? It means you do not have a right to disobey pedestrain traffic regulations, that is what. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/37 "2011-10-16T00:53:31Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > I meant to say something like kanicbird, i.e. that without the controversial elements, the work would be worthless to the ‘pirate’ so no potential benefit was lost. I don’t think that’s actually what **kanicbird** said. What you seem to be saying is that if the work wasn’t controversial then the hypothetical pirate wouldn’t want it, so since it is controversial he’s justified in pirating it. However, this is so obviously irrational I can only hope I’ve misunderstood you. > [@](#): > > Well, all you can learn from other people is that they found it offensive, not that you’d find it offensive, though… it might give you enough suspition to pirate it. So you think it’s okay to steal from people if you merely suspect that they’ve said or done something you might consider offensive. That’s a pretty vague standard, one that could be used to justify stealing anything and everything. If something is ordinarily unethical, it doesn’t suddenly become ethical if you’re motivated by spite. If anything that makes it worse. There are two ethical things you can do if you’ve heard secondhand that a creative work is offensive. You can obtain access to this work through any of the legal means available to you, or you can live without ever reading/seeing/hearing it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/38 "2011-10-16T01:14:42Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > That is absurd. Jaywalking is a technical violation of the law which does not involve taking anything. Online piracy is no different than stealing a DVD from a store. Well a DVD is a physical item. Inventory the store no longer has. Where as downloading is making a new copy. Therefore different. What is being “stolen” is the legal monopoly on making copies, not store inventory. If infringing on a legal monopoly on production is theft. I don’t see why infringing on legal right of way isn’t theft. I’m not is saying online piracy isn’t wrong, or is legal. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/39 "2011-10-16T01:15:45Z")
> [@colonial](#): > > It means you do not have a right to disobey pedestrain traffic regulations, > that is what. Because you’re stealing the right of way from it’s rightful owners. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715/40 "2011-10-16T02:06:14Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Well a DVD is a physical item. Inventory the store no longer has. Where as downloading is making a new copy. Therefore different. > > What is being “stolen” is the legal monopoly on making copies, not store inventory. If infringing on a legal monopoly on production is theft. I don’t see why infringing on legal right of way isn’t theft. > > I’m not is saying online piracy isn’t wrong, or is legal. The legal monopoly isn’t being stolen, it is maintained. Jaywalking does not create a new right of way or transfer one either. What’s being done is taking property that belongs to someone else. I’m no fan of the way intellectual property is defined, or the public enforcement of property rights for owners who rely on the honor system. But that doesn’t change the situation any more than stealing a DVD from a store and shouting “DVDs belong to the people”. If you think online piracy is wrong, how is different than what’s wrong with theft? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-consider-pirating-theft-would-you-pirate-a-disagreeable-work/599715.md?page=3)