# For those who think the 2nd Amendment is for defending us against a tyrannical government **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2020, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560 "2020-07-28T01:22:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560/21 "2020-07-31T18:28:30Z")
One of the purposes of the 2nd was to make sure the Nation is not 100% dependant on a standing Federal army- and that ship has sailed. Even the NG is now part of the Federal army. The purpose of the 2nd ad now is to allow people to defend their homes and persons. That was also true when it was written ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560/22 "2020-07-31T18:30:30Z")
Except of course, that when it was written, it was fully expected that states would make their own laws as to gun possession and use, which they did. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560/23 "2020-07-31T18:32:46Z")
Cite? Because owning a gun for self defense, hunting or yes, volunteering in the Militia, was taken as a given. Sure there were laws about carrying a gun in town, but none about owning one in your own home. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560/24 "2020-07-31T18:39:41Z")
[Just as a start](https://www.britannica.com/topic/black-code) > [@](#): > > Former slaves were forbidden to carry firearms [and of course](https://gun-control.procon.org/history-of-gun-control/) > [@](#): > > For example, an 1833 Georgia law stated, “it shall not be lawful for any free person of colour in this state, to own, use, or carry fire arms of any description whatever… that the free person of colour, so detected in owning, using, or carrying fire arms, shall receive upon his bare back, thirty-nine lashes, and that the fire arm so found in the possession of said free person of colour, shall be exposed for public sale.” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560/25 "2020-07-31T18:45:34Z")
Just like today, felons cant own guns, or you cant carry a gun onto a school-those are extreme lifeboat cases. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560/26 "2020-07-31T18:52:05Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > [Just as a start](https://www.britannica.com/topic/black-code) > > > [@](#): > > > > Former slaves were forbidden to carry firearms > > [and of course](https://gun-control.procon.org/history-of-gun-control/) > > > [@](#): > > > > For example, an 1833 Georgia law stated, “it shall not be lawful for any free person of colour in this state, to own, use, or carry fire arms of any description whatever… that the free person of colour, so detected in owning, using, or carrying fire arms, shall receive upon his bare back, thirty-nine lashes, and that the fire arm so found in the possession of said free person of colour, shall be exposed for public sale.” Yes indeed, there is certainly a long history of gun control laws being enacted for racist, anti-immigrant, and classist reasons. Gun control: Yet another tool of White Supremacy! Defund the ATF! ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560/27 "2020-07-31T20:18:45Z")
Former slaves and “persons of color” are not felons. [Here’s a fairly comprehensive (though not exhaustive) list of historical gun control laws.](https://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=559124089121125003064091106108095124063062077093054032068075014087090107106123001093033098026038045017119075002067074090076120025059009008018097075087099067064090106023000046125104098000098100026126065025091070005004008123113094080068098125076090092026&EXT=pdf) one example > [@](#): > > Georgia: Act of Dec. 25, 1837, 1837 Ga. Laws 90. § 1: it shall not be lawful for any > merchant, or vender of wares or merchandize in this State, or any other person or persons > whatsoever, to sell, or offer to sell, or to keep or have about their person or elsewhere, any > of the hereinafter described weapons, to wit: Bowie, or any other kind of knives, > manufactured and sold for the purpose of wearing, or carrying the same as arms of offense > or defense, pistols, dirks, sword canes, spears etc., shall also be contemplated in this act, > save such pistols as are known and used, as horseman’s pistols, etc. So, hand guns that were not meant for and used for militia purposes were banned from everyone. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560/28 "2020-07-31T20:21:34Z")
I didn’t say that the gun laws were not racist, but that was not the matter being addressed. As I said, every state was able to pass their own laws, as intended by those who wrote the second amendment. @DrDeth said that there were no laws about owning one in your own home. I pointed out that there are in fact laws about not owning them in your own home. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560/29 "2020-07-31T20:27:15Z")
> [@](#): > > So, hand guns that were not meant for and used for militia purposes were banned from everyone. That law was struck down by the Georgia Supreme Court in 1846 in [Nunn v. Georgia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunn_v._Georgia), explicitly as a violation of the Second Amendment’s guarantee of the right to keep and bear arms. This was before “incorporation”–it was before the Fourteenth Amendment–then again, the Second Amendment (unlike the First) doesn’t actually say “_ **Congress** _ shall make no law…”. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560/30 "2020-07-31T21:07:54Z")
This contradicts nothing that I said. @DrDeth said that owning a gun for self defense was taken as a given. The presumption being that the writers of 2A intended this purpose. I have demonstrated that that was not taken as a given in several cases. That a law was crafted and took nearly a decade to overturn, by the state court, not SCOTUS, tells me that it was not a given. That racially biased laws were crafted, and took much longer to overturn, if it all, is even further evidence that the individual right to self defense was not a given either. The claim being made is that 2A was written for the purpose of individual self defense. Not only does the wording of the amendment not address that at all, but quite a few laws were written that do not consider that meaning to be relevant. But, to return to the topic of the thread, there never was, and never will be, any sort of deterrence of tyranny by gun owners. The self defense argument has always been exactly that, _ **self** _ defense. Not defense of country or state or community, only of self. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560/31 "2020-07-31T21:34:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > This contradicts nothing that I said. > > @DrDeth said that owning a gun for self defense was taken as a given. > > The presumption being that the writers of 2A intended this purpose. > > I have demonstrated that that was not taken as a given in several cases. > > That a law was crafted and took nearly a decade to overturn, by the state court, not SCOTUS, tells me that it was not a given. > > That racially biased laws were crafted, and took much longer to overturn, if it all, is even further evidence that the individual right to self defense was not a given either. _ **No** _ rights have ever been a “given”. Not [free speech](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banned_in_Boston), not [free exercise of religion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Lukumi_Babalu_Aye_v._City_of_Hialeah), not [voting rights](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1pKoCq1bn0), not [the right to be free of unreasonable searches and seizures](https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/stop-and-seize/), not [the right to not be gunned down by the police in one’s own home](https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/21/us/breonna-taylor-death-police-changes-trnd/index.html). The right to keep and bear arms is in pretty distinguished company, there. I guess the Third Amendment has been pretty safe, though. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2020, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560/32 "2020-07-31T21:37:11Z")
Though you are correct to say no rights are _always_ taken as a given, I must point out that you still haven’t contradicted anything **k9bfriender** said. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560/33 "2020-08-01T00:22:29Z")
Well, I cant find that in your link, but I found it elsewhere , and if you read on:"_And be it further enacted by the authority aforesaid, …:_ _Provided, nevertheless, that the provisions of this act shall not extend to Sheriffs, Deputy Sheriffs,_ _Marshals, Constables, Overseers or Patrols, in actual discharge of their respective duties, but not_ _otherwise: Provided, also, that no person or persons, shall be found guilty of violating the before_ _recited act, who shall openly wear, externally, Bowie Knives, Dirks, Tooth Picks, Spears, and which_ _shall be exposed plainly to view: And provided, nevertheless, that the provisions of this act shall not_ _extend to prevent venders, or any other persons who now own and have for sale, any of the_ _aforesaid weapons, before the first day of March next."_ In other words- it prevented only new businesses for selling those things, and if you look at the last line of your cite “… _save such pistols as are known and used, as horseman’s pistols, etc._” which were the normal pistol in 1837, this only excluded small concealable pistols such as “muff” pistols, Derringers, etc. So what this law did was prevent new businesses from selling small concealable pistols. Meh ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560/34 "2020-08-01T00:26:49Z")
No, not all at, since you didnt read the whole law,-it didnt stop people from owning shotguns or rifles, just small concealable pistols and only those that didnt already sell or own such guns. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560/35 "2020-08-01T05:32:14Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Though you are correct to say no rights are _always_ taken as a given, I must point out that you still haven’t contradicted anything **k9bfriender** said. > > ~Max **K9bfriender** started off by saying that “Except of course, that when it [that is, the Second Amendment **MEB**] was written, it was fully expected that states would make their own laws as to gun possession and use, which they did”. Well, of course no one is claiming that states have zero power to make laws regulating “gun possession”–_every_ state has laws regulating possession of firearms and other weapons, so that’s a total straw man–and still less that states are unable to make laws regulating gun _ **use** _, which taken literally would imply that states can’t even outlaw _armed_ robbery, as that would infringe on the “right to keep and bear _arms_”. So, what kind of “laws as to gun possession and use” was **k9bfriender** asserting that states had and have the power to make? Well, the only ones he directly quoted from were: - Openly racist laws, which are no longer permissible after the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment–the states can no longer deny to any person within their jurisdictions the equal protection of the laws. That states were allowed to get away with blatantly flouting the supreme law of the land for over a century after the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment is a terrible stain on this country’s history, but that does not mean that such openly racist laws have _ever_ been constitutional since the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment. Many Americans have spent the 150 years since the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment trying very hard to see to it that the provisions of that amendment are actually enforced. - An 1833 Georgia law, which **k9bfriender** summarized as “hand guns that were not meant for and used for militia purposes were banned from everyone”–but as I pointed out, that law was struck down as unconstitutional over 170 years ago. But just to see if I can directly contradict something **k9bfriender** has said: When the Second Amendment was written, it was _NOT_ fully expected that states would make their own laws as to gun possession and use, if by “laws as to gun possession and use” it is meant that states can outlaw sale or possession of weapons “not meant for and used for militia purposes”. My authority for this is over 170 years of American constitutional jurisprudence at both the state and federal levels (_Nunn v. Georgia_; and _District of Columbia v. Heller_ and _McDonald v. City of Chicago_) which have interpreted the Second Amendment as disallowing such sweepingly prohibitionist forms of gun control. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560/36 "2020-08-01T21:01:39Z")
Thank you, I think this is a much better and articulate counterargument. I suspect **DrDeth** would concur (despite his original claim that the right to own a firearm for self defense, hunting, militia service, etc. was “taken as a given”), and look forward to **k9bfriender** ’s response. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2020, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560/37 "2020-08-02T03:25:37Z")
Well, I stand behind my claim, but yes, **MEBuckner** wrote a excellent post, much better than mine. ---
**Author:** ![damuriajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@damuriajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/damuriajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2020, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560/38 "2020-08-24T23:30:23Z")
The suspension of elections comes to mind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-think-the-2nd-amendment-is-for-defending-us-against-a-tyrannical-government/916560.md?page=1)