# For those who want abortions to be illegal, what should the punishment be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 30, 2000, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143 "2000-09-30T16:06:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/81 "2000-10-03T20:24:36Z")
That was jmullaney. šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![porcupine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac91a4/32.png) [@porcupine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/porcupine)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/82 "2000-10-03T20:33:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > Oops. And here I thought all porcupines had pricksā€¦ \*\* Unfortunately, I havenā€™t had a prick in a while. šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/83 "2000-10-03T20:40:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Someone correct me if Iā€™m wrong (as if I had to ask!), but I believe abortion was illegal in Nazi Germany. (Hitler wanted as many new Aryan citizens as he could get.) I believe the punishment for the woman was four years hard labor for the first offense, death for the second. Iā€™m not sure how the doctor was punished, if at all. (I first read this in an edition of The Peopleā€™s Almanac. I was unable to find any online confirmation of this claim.) > > (If true, this puts the lie to the people who call pro-choicers Nazis. Not that any of the anti-choice people on this thread have done so.) From the [Encyclopedia Britannica](http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/0/0,5716,108650+10+106082,00.html?query=nazi%20abortion): ā€œThe Nazi Third Reich invaded the bedrooms of its citizens before it moved its troops into the Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia. It forbade the display of contraceptives, which it condemned as the ā€˜by-product of the asphalt civilizationā€™ā€¦In this most controversial aspect of birth control, legal positions have oscillated, depending on circumstance and on government. In 1935 Joseph Stalin reversed Leninā€™s liberal abortion law in the Soviet Union, and the Nazis declared abortions to be ā€˜acts of sabotage against Germanyā€™s racial future.ā€™ In 1942 a woman was guillotined in Nazi-dominated France as a punishment for abortion, and in 1943 the government of the Third Reich introduced the death penalty for abortionists who ā€˜continually impaired the vitality of the German people.ā€™ā€ ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/84 "2000-10-03T21:15:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by divemaster \* > still addressing kyberneticist: > > > [@](#): > > > > From Skribbler: > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > Every time I look around what used to be my low density city, low density neighborhood and see all of the crowding and growth, it bothers me. Then along comes some lady on TV, beaming as she holds 4 or 5 newborns. (I canā€™t help it. I keep thinking of such births as litters.) Aside from 5 new people being injected into the population at once, I cringe at the amount of expense, labor and problems raising 5 new kids will bring to that family. > > > > (divemaster): So sorry these ā€œlittersā€ cramp your low-density neighborhood lifestyle. > > ā˜¹ > > (Kyberneticist): > > > [@](#): > > > > You really donā€™t understand, do you! A few of those are sustainable. If they become the norm, such families, which cannot bear the cost of supporting themselves (litter style has low birth weights and a host of accompanying problems - school cost tax rates in America are for average family of 2.1, not average family of 5) would crush the system. There would be no funds for it. > > Your numbers seem funky. You ask ā€œIf they become the normā€¦?ā€ How would this become the norm? How _could_ this become the norm? How does 1.37 million more live births increase average family size from 2.1 to 5? This is so totally off the base of reality, and _way_ out of the realm of this discussion. No matter what we do with abortion in this country, the US birthrate is not going to jump from 2.1 to 5. I never said they would. You are confusing two separate issues. I was defending Skribblerā€™s worries. Five child births _are_ a strain on the system. But supportable merely because they are not common. A hypothetical dramatic increase in multiple child births is in no way related to the abortion statistics quoted earlier. Furthermore, having these births for religious reasons is simply cruel. It is a terrible strain and a danger to the motherā€™s life. > [@](#): > > As such, I feel no obligation to answer such a hypothetical. And look at Skribblerā€™s post again. His own example is of a woman happy to have 5 children. Heck, I know several families with 5 or more children. They are happy. Iā€™m sorry that some of you see an increase of families like this as a threat to our US way of comfortable life. Well now that Iā€™ve pointed out how you confused the issue will you concede that 5 children to a birth is a strain on our system (large families, expensive births, increased medical care for low birth weight at birth and throughout life)? > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Now letā€™s get back to the insanity of your confidence in our ability to handle a 50% increase in the birth rate. Do you realise that such an increase would result in a birth reate equivelant to that of 3rd world countries? (27 births per thousand) > > I am not insane, I assure you. Iā€™m not sure where you get the numbers you are using. Iā€™m not challenging them as incorrect, it is just hard for me to follow. It seems you are saying that if all 1.37 million (your number) annual U.S. abortions became live births, then we would have the birth rate of a third-world nation. You then project > > > [@](#): > > > > such a population boom would be unbearable. It would result in the same starvation, overcrowding, and misery as the 3rd world is experiencing. The infrastructure for our public health system, already pathetically underfunded, would collapse. Death rates would climb, although probably not high enough to compensate for the birth rate. (reasoning behind this - Ethiopia, worst off of the 3rd world has a birth rate of 48 and a death rate of 21) > > Oh, I think weā€™d do okay! Are you basing your projection for the collapse of US civilization as we know it on a comparison to Ethiopia? I must be reading this wrong, so I wonā€™t follow that trail to its inevitable conclusion. Here is how I am drawing that conclusion. My sociology text gives the birth rate for 3rd world countries as 26 per 1000 (not 27, my apologies). The U.S.ā€™ current birth rate is 16 per 1000, already significantly higher then E.U. and Canada (Canada is at 12 per 1000) and it showsā€¦ 16+8=24 - not quite 26, but very, very close. I repeat my earlier claims. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Again, please show how we would compensate for such an increase, in particular, where the additional funding would come from, where we would find 50% more **qualified** foster parents and so on. > > Letā€™s see. 1.37 million fewer abortions each year. What with some that would never reach term for other (natural) reasons, can we drop it to 1.3 million live births? > Spread out over the vast expanse of the US. Thatā€™s an additional 26,000 per state. It is my opinion that the US could handle this. Some areas would have an easier time of it than others, but I donā€™t forsee the drastic collapse of our social systems that you do. In fact, no matter how many mental gymnastics I do, I just canā€™t reconcile this type of population growth with your doomsday scenario. You are hand-waving. Perhaps thatā€™s what you mean by mental gymnastics? The ā€œvast estate of the USā€ is already being taken into account earlier. Please note that no matter what size territory you are looking at, it is still the birth rate of a 3rd world country. Furthermore, U.S. states have vastly disparate populations. When I asked for an explanation, I meant please point out some untapped portion of the population that would provide an additional 1.37 million families a year willing to adopt and qualified to do so. Furthermore, it is not difficult to project a 50% increase (and this is being optimistic, construction costs would make that even higher) in maternity wards, in orphanages, in social programs. Increase the current growth rate of the U.S. by 50%, there are many sites online where one can find projections of what various population densities will mean in terms of feeding the people, housing them, providing for them. An explanation of where these resources would come from is what I am looking for. > [@](#): > > Iā€™m afraid Iā€™ve indulged you way too much on this aspect. Abortion as population control is not my bag. It sickens me, actually, to consider the ramifications that this road leads to. I already posted, in general terms, how I think our society could absorb this population increase. Since I do not accept your premise, Iā€™m afraid that will have to do. If that compels you to proclaim some sort of victory, so be it. You have given very little in the way of explanation. Abortion as population control only sickens if one considers an embryo or fetus to be a human being. I donā€™t, therefore it doesnā€™t, and I consider these to be valid points. I would constitute your failure to answer it to be indeed a kind of victory, and an example of the lack of foresight shown by pro-life forces. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/85 "2000-10-03T21:21:49Z")
Of course, on that note, if you just killed everyone it would solve a lot of problems. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/86 "2000-10-03T21:29:31Z")
(Shoulda known it was in the EB.) Well, no one here is saying women who get abortions should be guillotined. But over at the Pizza Place, a few folks have said the woman should be punished like any first-degree murderer. So do we do like the Nazis and make abortion illegal again, or do we continue like the Commies and leave it legal? If we killed everyone, it wouldnā€™t solve our problems. Who would bury the bodies? šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/87 "2000-10-03T21:32:47Z")
:rolleyes: Pity I feel killing people is immoral. Thatā€™s why I, and International Planned Parenthood advocate birth control. Keeping people from developing is better then shooting them once they have (or watching them starve to death). Itā€™s really very simple. Either we control our birth rate, or we will overpopulate and life will be brutish and short. Once the perfect form of birth control is developed that prevents fertilization, there will be no need for abortificants (ideally, an inexpensive, safe and fully reversible blocking of the tubes in a woman, ducts in a man). Until that time, abortions are an important part of family planning. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/88 "2000-10-03T21:55:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kyberneticist \* > Keeping people from developing is better then shooting them once they have (or watching them starve to death Iā€™m not sure I see a difference. Iā€™ve never noticed any food shortages where I am, either. Youā€™d end up with that many more people who could work to make food too in any case. > [@](#): > > Itā€™s really very simple. Either we control our birth rate, or we will overpopulate and life will be brutish and short. Iā€™m pretty sure that whole overpopulation thing is a myth. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/89 "2000-10-03T22:00:18Z")
For example: [http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ZUNPOP.HTM](http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ZUNPOP.HTM) ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/90 "2000-10-03T22:02:52Z")
Mind elaborating, jmullaney? In which way do you feel overpopulation is a myth? Do you think that no matter how much population increases, we will find food to feed people? Do you think that the death rate will increase to match the birth rate without human suffering? Otherwise, I fail to see any sense in that statement. In any case, Iā€™d be very interested to hear how you would defend it. ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/91 "2000-10-03T22:05:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > \*\*For example: > [http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ZUNPOP.HTM](http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ZUNPOP.HTM) \*\* I will refrain from calling people names, jmullaney, but really! The point has been made many times in this thread that European countries are at, or below the replacement rate. This doesnā€™t mean people there have stopped having sex. They are using contraceptives, and having abortions. The danger of overpopulation isnā€™t (of course) assumed to be despite these practices, it is as an extrapolation of birth rates with inadequate or no birth control. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/92 "2000-10-03T22:28:12Z")
Ah, but according to this link there is a danger of **underpopulation** these days. I donā€™t know how major a factor abortion was for population control in 1945 where he begins his study. If population isnā€™t growing in Europe, Latin America, China, or Russia, exactly _where_ is this global threat you are talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/93 "2000-10-03T22:45:26Z")
If population control measures arenā€™t hindered. Iā€™m referring to the population explosion that would occur if pro-life forces had their way. The world population is still increasing at significant enough a rate to cause concern, all the more because it is concentrated in areas (think, even more slash and burn rainforest devastation). But yes, it is getting under control. No thanks to institutions like the ā€œpro-lifeā€ Roman Catholic Church which is unfortunately quite strong in many of the areas where population is still high. Please note of the countries the link you gave listed - E.U., Brazil (a wealthy latin american country), Magreb (hardly 3rd world), China (instituted massive restrictions in reproduction, by law), Russia (former Communist, few pro-life, easy access to birth control). Think of the countries it DIDNā€™T list. India, massive increases in population. Pretty much all the African countries where it is increasing. United States. Yes, still well above replacement rate and growing, although not to any serious extent. The link also claims population stability in South/Central America. I donā€™t have any interest in examining this at the present as I have to finish up my work within the next 15 minutes. Suffice to say it only makes any strong claims for one of the richer countries. One suspects an agenda on the part of the writer, but I donā€™t have time at the moment to investigate that either. ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/94 "2000-10-03T22:48:59Z")
Also note that the interviewee states outright that population regulation follows from improvement in the standard of living. Does he think that increases in standard of living equals people stopping sex? No, obviously there is an increase in birth control and abortions, which is borne out by easily accessible statistics on E.U. countries, Canada, and the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/95 "2000-10-03T22:52:07Z")
ure, you have your agenda, the people who wrote their link have theirs. Who knows? Hereā€™s another one: [http://www.ewtn.com/library/PROLENC/ENCYC048.TXT](http://www.ewtn.com/library/PROLENC/ENCYC048.TXT) Basically, if parents are too lazy to raise two or more kids, in the long run there ainā€™t gonna be much of a future. And you can read every last exciting detail of the pro-life agenda here: [http://www.ewtn.com/library/PROLENC/](http://www.ewtn.com/library/PROLENC/) I donā€™t want to get caught up in this debate. ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/96 "2000-10-03T22:54:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > \*\*Ah, but according to this link there is a danger of **underpopulation** these days. I donā€™t know how major a factor abortion was for population control in 1945 where he begins his study. If population isnā€™t growing in Europe, Latin America, China, or Russia, exactly _where_ is this global threat you are talking about? \*\* One last thing. International Planned Parenthood and the U.N. are well aware that Italy has dipped below replacement rate. There is hardly a danger of underpopulation, however, in the overall world population, and other E.U. countries are just over or stable. In any case, he never states that this was the case 45 years ago, merely that there was a trend towards lower populations. Which is what youā€™d expect, as economic status improves, and as abortions become more accessible and safe, and birth control cheaper and more effective. Again, this is hardly worldwide. Ack 6 minutes left! Gotta hurry! ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/97 "2000-10-03T23:00:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jmullaney \* > \*\*ure, you have your agenda, the people who wrote their link have theirs. Who knows? > > Hereā€™s another one: > [http://www.ewtn.com/library/PROLENC/ENCYC048.TXT](http://www.ewtn.com/library/PROLENC/ENCYC048.TXT) > > Basically, if parents are too lazy to raise two or more kids, in the long run there ainā€™t gonna be much of a future. > > I donā€™t want to get caught up in this debate. > \*\* Mind picking out the bits that matter from that extremely long entry? I understand wanting to avoid debate and stick to slinging of links, but at least save us the trouble of picking through all the other rhetoric in that link. Certainly I have an agenda, but Iā€™m merely pointing out that those people were avoiding the mention of countries where population is very much on the rise. People would have to stop having children for a very long time for us to worry about not having a future, and it will be quite some time before we reverse current population growth. Or those countries in which population is exponentially growing not count, in your opinion, towards our future? Once population is under control perhaps then the push can be toward encouraging an average of a bit more then 1 kid per person. Now, however, is definitely not the time. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/98 "2000-10-03T23:01:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kyberneticist \* > Magreb (hardly 3rd world) Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya arenā€™t 3rd world? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/99 "2000-10-04T04:34:43Z")
> [@](#): > > So do we do like the Nazis and make abortion illegal again, or do we continue like the Commies and leave it legal? Actually, we have a split decision on the Commies. Itā€™s true that abortion laws were liberalized under Lenin. But under Stalin, abortion was again outlawed. (See [this excerpt](http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Soviet1.html) from _The Soviet Unionā€“A Country Study_ [(Raymond E. Zickel, ed. (Washington, D. C.: Federal Research Division of the Library of Congress, 1989).]; under Lenin, ā€œ[t]he state legalized abortion, and it made divorce progressively easier to obtainā€, but under Stalin ā€œ[t]o provide greater social stability, the state aimed to strengthen the family by restricting divorce and abolishing abortionā€.) So it appears that the pro-choice side is ahead two Evil Dictators to one in the Guilt-By-Association contest. (Does anyone know Maoā€™s position on the issue? Given Chinaā€™s policies on population control, I suspect he would even up the score.) ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143/100 "2000-10-04T15:33:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kyberneticist \* > Once population is under control perhaps then the push can be toward encouraging an average of a bit more then 1 kid per person. Now, however, is definitely not the time. :rolleyes: OK. Abracadabra. The population is under control. Always has been. Overpopulation is a myth. Prove me wrong, without a chorus of ā€œItā€™s a small world after all,ā€ please, thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-those-who-want-abortions-to-be-illegal-what-should-the-punishment-be/35143.md?page=6)