# For Vanilla; a universalist's perspective **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-vanilla-a-universalists-perspective/153982 "2003-02-10T00:52:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-vanilla-a-universalists-perspective/153982/1 "2003-02-10T00:52:52Z")
From this [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=155928&perpage=50&highlight=grienspace&pagenumber=4) > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Vanilla_ > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by grienspace_ > > I just want to add that there is no such thing as a tormenting hell forever for anyone, and if it matters to any one , I’ll provide the relevant scriptures and sources pointing out the translation irregularities that lead to an impression of permanent torture, and references to early church leaders clearly believing in the ultimate universal salvation for all mankind. > > Yes! > please provide. My apologies for my tardiness. I also thought it best to start a new thread. Before I continue, I would like to provide some background that allowed me to arrive at the most comforting revelation that despite the foibles and ignorance of myself and my loved ones and the rest of humanity, that I do not have to fear that I’ll have to watch my children be tormented forever or be burdened by their eternal oblivion as a result of my laxity in their Christian education. I was raised in an extremely devout Dutch-Canadian Calvinist reformed church. All extended family get togethers inevitably resulted in hours of discussion regarding religious matters. I wasn’t allowed to go to dances, movies, purchase anything on Sunday let alone do anything on Sunday that couldn’t be done on Saturday. Employment opportunities were limited to non-union companies. There was no outreach, but a clear sense that the one and only truth resided at this particular church and that somehow the Dutch were extrordinarily blessed because all I ever saw at church were Dutch Canadians , a distinct minority from my point of view. Truly, I believed that we were special and I believed all other churches and their members were insincere in their Christianity. We separated ourselves from the world best as we could. At the age of 14 my mother died, and six months later my father broke away from this church and led all eight of his children into a Baptist style church which did not believe in pastors or instrumental music. At this point, my faith in churches was broken although my belief in God was not, yet I pushed Him into the far recesses of my mind as I pursued all the pleasures of the flesh with abandon. Although I still had empathy, I hurt many people, and it is safe to say that I became a disgustingly selfish human being. When the knowledge came that I was about to become a father, I was involved in a DUI accident and the two events inspired me to seek out the Lord once again. I tried various churches, but the inconsistencies of each of their messages prevented me from feeling comfortable in their presence. Meantime my father who also had tried various churches that quite likely did not appreciate his outspokeness gave up on them and devoted his retirement to studying the scriptures on his own. Then one day he came to me with pamphlets from J. Preston Eby and declared his relief with the newly acquired belief in universal salvation. This doctrine captured me immediately, allowing me to read scripture in a totally new light. I present the case for universalism because I feel so good and relieved with this knowledge that I wish to share with those who are burdened with the charges that their God is hateful and spiteful. > [@](#): > > _John 3:35_ > The Father loves the Son and has placed\*\* everything\*\* in his hands. > [@](#): > > \*John 6:39 \* > And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of **all** that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. > [@](#): > > _Colossians 1:16_ > For by him **all** things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; **all** things were created by him and for him. I present the above passages which suggest that the entire universe was created by God for Christ and it is the will of God (which we pray for in the Lord’s Prayer) that Christ should lose none of it. > [@](#): > > _Colossians 1:20_ > and through him to reconcile to himself **all** things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. > [@](#): > > _2 Peter 3:9_ > The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but **everyone** to come to repentance. > [@](#): > > \*Isaiah 45:23 \* > By myself I have sworn, > my mouth has uttered in all integrity > a word that will not be revoked: > **Before me every knee will bow; > by me every tongue will swear.** > [@](#): > > _1 Corinthians 15:22 \* > For as in Adam **all** die, so in Christ_\* all \*\*will be made alive. > [@](#): > > _1 John 4:14_ > And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of\*\* the world\*\*. > [@](#): > > _1 Timothy 2:3-6_ > This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants **all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom forall** men–the testimony given in its proper time. Now I am clearly aware that the standard response to the claim that it is the will of God that all men be saved can be stymied by a man’s rejection. In other words there is only an offer of salvation to everyone, that it isn’t a done deal. God would like us all to be saved but alas, But let’s read further: > [@](#): > > _Isaiah 46:10_ > I make known the end from the beginning, > from ancient times, what is still to come. > I say: My purpose will stand, > and I will do all that I please. > [@](#): > > \*Isaiah 55:11 \* > so is my word that goes out from my mouth: > It will not return to me empty, > but will accomplish what I desire > and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. That speaks powerfully to me. It reminds me also of > [@](#): > > _John 1:1_ > In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. But I am well aware that seemingly direct contradictions do occur in the bible. for example > [@](#): > > _Revelations 20:10-15_ > 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. > > The Dead Are Judged > > 11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Truly disturbing images. The greek word from which we get “torment” in the above passage is _basanizo_. Interestingly this word is used in a completely inanimate sense and translated as “tossed” without suggesting torture as follows > [@](#): > > _Matthew 14:24_ > But the boat was now in the middle of the sea, tossed by the waves, for the wind was contrary > [@](#): > > \*Matthew 25:46 \* > “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” One can also translate “eternal punishment” from the original Greek words \* aionion\* and \* kolasin\* to “permanent corrective punishment”, which of course suggests a successful correction that will stand permanently. Such an interpretation is in keeping with the previous verses cited. > [@](#): > > _1 Corinthians 15:52 \* > in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the_\* last\*\* trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable\*, and we will be changed. \*most translation read incorruptible This passage supports the interpretation I advanced for the previous verse > [@](#): > > _1 Corinthians 15:19-28_ > If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. > But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. > For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. > For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. > But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. > Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. > For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. > The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. > For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. > And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. To me, this is one of the most powerfully clear and reassuring passage in the bible. I could paraphrase as follows: “If only people who are like me have hope in Christ, then that hope is useless. But as we were all condemned with the death penalty by Adam, we are all reprieved by Christ, but in a particular order, first Christ himself, then those who have “accepted Him” at the second coming, and finally, when Christ has subdued everything in the universe, exacting voluntary obedience to His will, then he will present us all to God that God may be all in all.” Not sure exactly what “all in all” means, other than a sense of universality is evident here. I have the sense that I could go on and on, but if you or anyone else is interested, the main source that I’ve drawn on to present this post comes from the [Christianworld Church site](http://www.christianworld.freeserve.co.uk/index.htm). A far more comprehensive presentation can be found here. Finally I wish to present the words of one of the most famous and prolific theologins of the early Christian church, **Origen** as he represents the Christian belief during the 3rd century CE to a Greek Stoic philosopher named Celsus. > [@](#): > > _Celsus, 6k8, ch. 72, ANF, v.4, p. 667_ > The Stoics, indeed, hold that, when the strongest of the elements prevails, all things shall be turned into fire. But our belief is, that the Word shall prevail over the entire rational creation, and **change every soul into his own perfection** …for although in the diseases and wounds of the body, there are some which no medical skill can cure, yet we hold that in the mind there is no evil so strong that it may not be overcome by the Supreme Word and God. For stronger than all the evils in the soul is the Word, and the healing power that swells in Him, **and the healing He applies, according to the will of God to every man**. The consummation of all things is the destruction of evil…to quote Zephaniah: ‘My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kings, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger, for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent’… **.consider carefully the promise, that all shall call upon the name of the Lord, and serve Him with one consent;** also that all contemptuous reproach shall be taken away, and there shall be no longer any injustice, or vain speech, or a deceitful tongue How different is the public Christian message today! How did Christianity evolve from this view to the pessimistic message of Fred Phelps and Jack Chick? ---
**Author:** ![Slainte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Slainte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slainte)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-vanilla-a-universalists-perspective/153982/2 "2003-02-10T01:56:22Z")
Though this post wasn’t directed to me, I’d like to tell you that it was an excellent read. I feel much the same way. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-vanilla-a-universalists-perspective/153982/3 "2003-02-10T16:48:07Z")
Thanks. I must leave the library now, but I’ve printed this out and will reply tomorrow. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-vanilla-a-universalists-perspective/153982/4 "2003-02-10T17:12:38Z")
Before we get started, I just want to point out that scripture casn be used to call into question traditional beliefs, but not to prove them. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-vanilla-a-universalists-perspective/153982/5 "2003-02-10T18:31:10Z")
Just to commend **grienspace** on: keeping a promise; expressing a view I strongly sympathize with; and writing a well-thought-out and clearly expressed OP. Thanks, my friend! It was a nice witness to where your life has been and how you’ve come to understand God’s will. ---
**Author:** ![FriendRob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecc23a/32.png) [@FriendRob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendRob)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-vanilla-a-universalists-perspective/153982/6 "2003-02-10T18:40:20Z")
> [@](#): > > How did Christianity evolve from this view to the pessimistic message of Fred Phelps and Jack Chick? It’s all St. Augustine’s fault. (Yeah, vast oversimplification, but still somewhat true.) Too bad his view won out and Origen’s view became heresy… ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-vanilla-a-universalists-perspective/153982/7 "2003-02-11T04:36:10Z")
It is my fault, of course. The decision to choose not to love my brother is always mine. With true love for my brother, and love for my Lord, I could never abandon my brother. How much less could the Lord abandon him? Blaming St. Augustine, or Fred Phelps, or Jack Chick, is just a convenient way to avoid looking into my own heart, and seeing there that I have taken my turn at hating my brothers. I saw the infinite love that God has made real, and spat upon a child of His, because I thought that man denied that I saw the truth. And I took my turn at reviling them in the name of my Lord, as well. It shows how poor a servant of the Lord I am. I am not loved because I am worthy. How can I choose to despise in my turn, because I judge someone else to be unworthy? This Christianity thing is harder than you think. Fortunately, it doesn’t depend on us. Tris ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-vanilla-a-universalists-perspective/153982/8 "2003-02-11T14:05:54Z")
grein, I am happy you have foudn your own way of believing. However, I am sure there is a Hell. Jesus spoke of it, and God is just, were there no hell, there would be no justice. IMHO.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-vanilla-a-universalists-perspective/153982/9 "2003-02-11T14:49:45Z")
Uh, **Vanilla** , **grienspace** did not say that there is no Hell, in so many words – He said that God is not willing that anyone go there, a somewhat different concept. And there is an old, and very wise, proverb – “Don’t long for justice; you might get it!” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-vanilla-a-universalists-perspective/153982/10 "2003-02-11T14:52:01Z")
Oh, I agree totally, God doesn’t want anyone to go to Hell. But hell will be full of people, I am sure. Justice? No, I want and need mercy, however, justice will out. ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-vanilla-a-universalists-perspective/153982/11 "2003-02-11T16:10:14Z")
Apparently **vanilla** , God’s desire for people not to go to hell is not as strong as his desire to enforce the rules he made up - knowing full well of course, the suffering those rules would cause. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-vanilla-a-universalists-perspective/153982/12 "2003-02-11T17:21:22Z")
**Slainte** , I’m glad to hear of your approval. **sqweels** , If the reality of God and his purpose for the world could actually be proven logically by man, then I would think that there would be no disagreement here at all. **Polycarp** , my brother, it gives me such great pleasure to hear from you. **FriendRob** , I suspect it goes way back to Emperor Theodosius IX who declared Christianity the state religion and abolished pagan sacrifice. At this point the popular Christianity becomes a tool of the state which has an interest in the conformity of Christian beliefs to support state objectives. **Triskadecamus** , well said. **Vanilla** I agree with you, hades, sheol, gehenna,tartarus have all been translated as “hell”. The Apostle’s Creed it appears also describes the gospel of Luke’s “paradise” as “hell”. So we have many references to hell and many different interpretations of what hell is. But one thing is clear to me from the scriptures I quoted. Hell (Hades) and death (the last enemy) will be destroyed . But now I must ask you **Vanilla** , is God’s mercy and justice incompatible? **Mars Horizon** , Good point. Could God in his divine plan upon the creation of the universe permitted a situation that would put Him in conflict with Himself? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-vanilla-a-universalists-perspective/153982/13 "2003-02-12T03:43:03Z")
> [@](#): > > I present the case for universalism because I feel so good and relieved with this knowledge that I wish to share with those who are burdened with the charges that their God is hateful and spiteful. It sounds to me as if you really _want_ the Bible to preach universalism. I would say this reflects well on your own morality, but I don’t think it makes you a very objective interpreter of Scripture. > [@](#): > > How did Christianity evolve from this view to the pessimistic message of Fred Phelps and Jack Chick? I really think it’s more likely that the view of Hell as eternal torment was the original one, rather than that universalism (or annihilationism) was the original view, and was later suppressed for political reasons. That is, I think the men who wrote the texts now included in the New Testament believed in eternal punishment. The arguments against it seem awfully strained; for example, in [Matthew 25:46](http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1045019864-9448.html#46), “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” (KJV), the same word in Greek is used to describe both the “everlasting punishment” of the wicked and the “life eternal” of the righteous. There is also the question of what message Jesus (or the author of the Gospel of Luke) was trying to get across in the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus ([Luke 16:19-31](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Luke+16%3A19-31&NIV_version=yes&language=english)). It seems rather terroristic to teach a lesson by means of a parable which speaks in terms of the wicked being sent to a place of fiery torment with no apparent means of alleviating their condition, if one is not trying to instill a belief in the doctrine of eternal punishment. You also don’t mention [Revelation 14:11](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=REV+14:11&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on): “And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” My armchair interpretation of the [Greek for that verse](http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1045020366-6986.html#11) suggests it might be rendered “for [ages and ages](http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1045021089-6435.html)” rather than “for eternity” in a strictly literal sense, but even if we accept this interpretation, it still doesn’t sit all that well with a universalist view. God will redeem everyone, but some of them will have to be tormented for ages and ages first? It rather smacks of Orwell: “He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-vanilla-a-universalists-perspective/153982/14 "2003-02-12T17:06:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > It sounds to me as if you really _want_ the Bible to preach universalism…but I don’t think it makes you a very objective interpreter of Scripture. I have no defence for this assertion, other than to ask if anyone is purely objective when it comes matters of interpretaion of the canonized scriptures. > [@](#): > > I really think it’s more likely that the view of Hell as eternal torment was the original one, rather than that universalism (or annihilationism) was the original view, and was later suppressed for political reasons. That is, I think the men who wrote the texts now included in the New Testament believed in eternal punishment. Well that is certainly understandable. But then you must subjectively ignore all references that clearly indicate that Christ is the saviour of all men. Your references to eternal torment could easily have been lent to hyperbole either by the author or more likely by translation. I just can’t see how “Christ is the saviour of those who are born again only and the rest go to hell” can be exagerated into “Christ is the saviour of all men” With regard to your quotations, lets look at Young’s literal translations > [@](#): > > _Matthew 25:46_ > And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.’ This of course refers to the judgement where goats are separated from the sheep. Could this not read as “And these shall go away to permanent corrective punishment but the righteous to permanent life” ? It is refering to the metaphorical lake of fire, also described as the second death. But death and Hades are also to be cast into the “lake of fire”, which is to be accomplished before Christ delivers up **all** to the Father in the end. (the end of the age) > [@](#): > > _Revelation 14:11_ > and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name. How a vision which prompted this verse could flat out ascertain a doctrinal forever is highly unlikely. Once again hyperbole, “on and on” for dramatic effect is suggested here. > [@](#): > > There is also the question of what message Jesus (or the author of the Gospel of Luke) was trying to get across in the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus ([Luke 16:19-31](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Luke+16%3A19-31&NIV_version=yes&language=english)). It seems rather terroristic to teach a lesson by means of a parable which speaks in terms of the wicked being sent to a place of fiery torment with no apparent means of alleviating their condition, if one is not trying to instill a belief in the doctrine of eternal punishment. It is worth noting that this parable refers to Hades, not the Lake of Fire which eventually will consume Hades. The concept of a burning tormenting hell was not in the old testament but recently introduced in Jewish culture. No doubt the Pharisees (a recent introduction into Jewish culture as well) for which this parable was directed promoted such belief. Jesus held them in contempt. The story clearly was not intended to represent a reality. The pharisees were being histed on there own petard. > [@](#): > > … but even if we accept this interpretation, it still doesn’t sit all that well with a universalist view. God will redeem everyone, but some of them will have to be tormented for ages and ages first? It rather smacks of Orwell: “He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother.” The relevence of the Orwellian reference went over my head. I would also like to add that any understanding of “torment” is purely subjective as I dealt with earlier. After all many of us are tossed about "tormented " in this life. You might not be impressed with the mercy/justice dichotomy presented to us but that’s your call. I trust in the Lord. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-vanilla-a-universalists-perspective/153982/15 "2003-02-12T19:52:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grienspace \* > I have no defence for this assertion, other than to ask if anyone is purely objective when it comes matters of interpretaion of the canonized scriptures. I think someone who doesn’t and never has believed in the texts of the Bible as “canonized scriptures” is going to have less emotional investment in how they are interpreted than someone who is convinced they are the Word of God. > [@](#): > > But then you must subjectively ignore all references that clearly indicate that Christ is the saviour of all men. And the universalist must ignore all references that clearly indicate that not all will be saved. ([Matthew 7:13-14](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matthew+7%3A13-14&NIV_version=yes&language=english&x=13&y=4), [Matthew 22:1-14](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matthew+22%3A1-14&NIV_version=yes&language=english), [Luke 13:22-30](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=+Luke+13%3A22-30&NIV_version=yes&language=english&x=14&y=6)) It’s also entirely possible to me that “apparent contradictions” are real contradictions; thus, it’s conceivable that the author of one part of the New Testament might have believed in universal salvation, while the author of another part might have believed in damnation and eternal punishment for some people. > [@](#): > > The relevence of the Orwellian reference went over my head. It’s the last line of _1984_. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-vanilla-a-universalists-perspective/153982/16 "2003-02-13T05:47:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > I think someone who doesn’t and never has believed in the texts of the Bible as “canonized scriptures” is going to have less emotional investment in how they are interpreted than someone who is convinced they are the Word of God. True, but less willing to bother to rationalize apparent discrepencies or in the case of some, motivated to even accentuate them for the pupose of refuting Christianity. Cuts both ways I’d say. > [@](#): > > And the universalist must ignore all references that clearly indicate that not all will be saved. Not this one. call it my hang up but I have a strong need to reconcile the apparent discrepencies of the scripture. > [@](#): > > - [Matthew 7:13-14](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matthew+7%3A13-14&NIV_version=yes&language=english&x=13&y=4) \* > 13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, **and only a few find it.** > [@](#): > > - [Matthew 22:1-14](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Matthew+22%3A1-14&NIV_version=yes&language=english) \* > The Parable of the Wedding Banquet > > 1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2"The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come. > 4"Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’ > 5"But they paid no attention and went off–one to his field, another to his business. 6The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. > 8"Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9Go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, both good and bad, and the wedding hall was filled with guests. > 11"But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12’Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless. > 13"Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ > 14\*\*“For many are invited, but few are chosen.”\*\* > [@](#): > > - [Luke 13:22-30](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=+Luke+13%3A22-30&NIV_version=yes&language=english&x=14&y=6) \* > The Narrow Door > > 22Then Jesus went through the towns and villages, teaching as he made his way to Jerusalem. 23Someone asked him,\*\* “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?”\*\* > 24He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door,\*\* because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.\*\* 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’ > “But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’ > 26"Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’ > 27"But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’ > 28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. 30Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.” We’ve already addressed references to the Lake of Fire, for which we’ve agreed to disagree, but the above cites you’ve brought up are a different matter entirely as you well know. But consider the following verses as well > [@](#): > > - Timothy4:9-10\* > It is a trustworthy statement statement deserving full acceptance. For it is this we labour and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the savior of all men especially of believers. Prescribe and teach these things. Please note the distinction for believers even though the inference is salvation for all men > [@](#): > > - jRomans 8 18-21\* > 18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that[9] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Who are these sons of God that Paul speaks of ? Revealed to whom? Can’t be everyone yet the "creation itself will be…brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Now lets take another look at > [@](#): > > - 1 Corinthians 15: 19-28 > For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he “has put everything under his feet.”[1] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. Is it not clear here that a distinction is being made for believers? “then, when he comes, those who belong to him”. And yet, if we are to understand what everything under Christ’s feet means we can be sure it means everything because the statement requires the subsequent qualification exempting God the Father. Clearly a very limited number of men will enter the kingdom of God. But when Christ is finished ruling with his saints, He’ll have perfected the rest of us and hauled us in. Perhaps I’ve been lax in preaching that there is no free ride here. It ain’t going to be easy for wicked people. And though the gift is free it ain’t going to be easy to direct to Heaven. Only a few do. You don’t go **direct** becuase you believe on him. You pretty well got to be a saint. > [@](#): > > It’s also entirely possible to me that “apparent contradictions” are real contradictions; thus, it’s conceivable that the author of one part of the New Testament might have believed in universal salvation, while the author of another part might have believed in damnation and eternal punishment for some people. Then I would have to believe that the author of the second part wasn’t inspired. That’s possible, after all there’s been much difficulty among early Christendom in canonizing the various scriptures and ascertaining the authenticity of many writings. But I believe I’ve adequately accounted for your proffered “contradictions” and will remain satisfied with the conclusions I’ve settled on.