# For what types of actions should a president be impeached? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 4, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269 "2019-10-04T16:48:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/1 "2019-10-04T16:48:21Z")
The constitution calls for impeachment for treason or undefined “high crimes and misdemeanors.” Impeachment is a political process so the General Questions answer to what constitutes high crimes and misdemeanors is “whatever the House wants to impeach the president for.” I’m asking, however, for your opinion about what actions you believe should be subject to impeachment. Poll to come. Please check all that apply. This is a non-exclusive list of impeachable conduct so while there may be other categories of actions that you feel are impeachable, these are the ones I’m asking about. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/2 "2019-10-04T16:56:10Z")
Any civil officer of government can be impeached, not just the President. [From Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_the_United_States#Federal_impeachment_investigations_formally_commenced_and_officials_impeached): > [@](#): > > The House of Representatives has initiated impeachment proceedings 62 times since 1789. > > The House has impeached 19 federal officers. Of these: > > • 15 were federal judges: thirteen district court judges, one court of appeals judge (who also sat on the Commerce Court), and one Supreme Court Associate Justice. > > • two were Presidents: Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton; both were later acquitted by the Senate. > > • one was a Cabinet secretary > > • one was a U.S. Senator. Wikipedia lists the 19 federal officials for whom impeachment proceedings were instituted and referred to a committee of the House of Representatives. Here were the accusations made against them: > [@](#): > > • Conspiring to assist Britain in capturing Spanish territory > > • Drunkenness and unlawful rulings > > • Political bias and arbitrary rulings, promoting a partisan political agenda on the bench > > • Abuse of power > > • Corruption > > • Supporting the Confederacy > > • Violating the Tenure of Office Act > > • Drunkenness > > • Graft, corruption > > • Failure to live in his district, abuse of power > > • Improper acceptance of gifts from litigants and attorneys > > • Abuse of power > > • Corruption > > • Champerty, corruption, tax evasion, practicing law while a judge > > • Brief stay of execution for Julius and Ethel Rosenberg > > • Failure to recuse on obscenity cases while at the same time having articles published in _Evergreen Review_ and _Avant-Garde_ magazines; conflict of paid board positions with two non-profits > > • Obstruction of justice, Abuse of Power, Contempt of Congress > > • Tax evasion > > • Accepting a bribe, and committing perjury during the resulting investigation > > • Perjury > > • Perjury and obstruction of justice > > • Sexual assault, and obstruction of justice during the resulting investigation > > • Making false financial disclosures, corruption. ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/3 "2019-10-04T17:00:05Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > Any civil officer of government can be impeached, not just the President. I’m not asking people’s opinions of when the Assistant Secretary to the Treasury for Capital Markets should be impeached. I’m also not asking for a history lesson. I’m asking your opinion of which of the categories I describe are circumstances when the president should be impeached. If you were responding before the poll was up, I invite you you complete the poll. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/4 "2019-10-04T17:09:23Z")
(Nitpick: Watergate, not Whitewater. We know what you meant.) ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/5 "2019-10-04T17:16:23Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > (Nitpick: Watergate, not Whitewater. We know what you meant.) I did that on purpose to see if anyone was reading closely. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/6 "2019-10-04T17:17:50Z")
Heh. Like Van Halen’s m&ms clause in their concert contracts. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/7 "2019-10-04T17:32:33Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > I did that on purpose to see if anyone was reading closely. 😉 Time travel should definitely be an impeachable offense, so I checked that one. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/8 "2019-10-04T18:46:35Z")
I’d consider impeachment to only be appropriate in two instances: 1. If a president does something that is illegal and very serious; 2. If a president does things that are just terribly embarrassing even if not illegal (i.e., show up at United Nations General Assembly wearing nothing but underwear) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/9 "2019-10-04T19:31:52Z")
Those “any”s throw me. Degree matters. In general- Abuse of power in a way that attempts to subvert the balance of power between the branches or the election itself or major abuses for other personal gains. The more the abuse threatens the system itself the more impeachable it is. Illegal is not strictly required for that abuse of power and attack on the Constitution itself. ---
**Author:** ![squidfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@squidfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squidfood)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/10 "2019-10-04T19:37:03Z")
Hmm, this poll jumps from “policy decisions” to “illegal”. Where’s “blatantly unethical and damaging to the country/institutions, but not strictly/provably illegal” category? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/11 "2019-10-04T19:39:59Z")
> [@squidfood](#): > > Hmm, this poll jumps from “policy decisions” to “illegal”. Where’s “blatantly unethical and damaging to the country/institutions, but not strictly/provably illegal” category? This. Its absence makes me a bit skeptical about the OP’s motives, but hopefully I’m being silly. ---
**Author:** ![squidfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@squidfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squidfood)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/12 "2019-10-04T19:45:55Z")
I’d also add that my personal threshold would be “preponderance of evidence” not “beyond a reasonable doubt” for anything actually illegal. I see impeachment as more akin to shareholders firing the CEO than a criminal trial. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/13 "2019-10-04T19:50:18Z")
I think it should rather less easy to do than _that_ — as much as I hate to say it, the will of the people (compromised as it might be by the electoral college system) on Election Day should be difficult to overturn, surely. ---
**Author:** ![Dahnlor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dahnlor/32/533_2.png) [@Dahnlor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dahnlor)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/14 "2019-10-04T20:01:03Z")
This poll hurt my brain. ---
**Author:** ![squidfood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a87d85/32.png) [@squidfood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squidfood)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/15 "2019-10-04T20:05:03Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > I think it should rather less easy to do than _that_ — as much as I hate to say it, the will of the people (compromised as it might be by the electoral college system) on Election Day should be difficult to overturn, surely. Well ok, maybe the CEO model is too far the other way, I’m assuming the removal is “for cause/ethical lapse that prevents the CEO from being considered trustworthy” and not just poor company performance. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/16 "2019-10-04T20:31:04Z")
I’d agree if you just make it more like “…prevents the **company/country** from being considered trustworthy…” That is, the lapse has to jeopardize the national interest (domestically or on the world stage), which could include the electoral process. Trustworthy about, say, marital infidelities is not impeachable, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/17 "2019-10-04T20:35:39Z")
> [@squidfood](#): > > Hmm, this poll jumps from “policy decisions” to “illegal”. Where’s “blatantly unethical and damaging to the country/institutions, but not strictly/provably illegal” category? Frankly, in my humble opinion, most of the things that are unambiguously unethical are also illegal (though certainly not all). When you talk about things that are “damaging to the country/institutions” but which are legal, in my opinion, you are talking about policy decisions unless you have some specific example in mind that doesn’t fit into that category. Again, the poll isn’t all encompassing; it’s just the things I was interested in. My motives are idle curiosity. For what it’s worth, I was hoping to tease out diversity of viewpoints with some examples. People use different theories to assert that our current president is or isn’t impeachable now. There are various frameworks to consider whether a president is impeachable, notably: 1. Maximalists: Impeachment any time for any reason. 2. Minimalists: Never, for any reason, because it’s too disruptive and checks and balances limit the damage of a bad president. 3. Time period covered: The most common view among scholars and historians seems to be that you can only impeach for conduct that takes place during a president’s term, however, I wanted to explore what people thought about either bad conduct they didn’t know about during the election or malfeasance that took place during the election or interregnum. It seems to me that these should both be potential grounds for presidential impeachment even if it has never come up before. 4. Whether you can impeach because you don’t like how he’s running the place (i.e., policy disagreements). This is effectively why Andrew Johnson was impeached but no president has been impeached on similar grounds since. Historians say that we decided policy decisions aren’t impeachable conduct. I’m curious if dopers agree. I think if things are bad enough, this too should be impeachable. There are certainly other categories of impeachable conduct. For example, we have at least one professed minimalist but perhaps if I’d added treason, they would have thought differently. But since treason is right in the constitution, it’s not an interesting question to me. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/18 "2019-10-04T20:39:34Z")
I’ll know it when I see it. ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/19 "2019-10-04T20:43:57Z")
> [@squidfood](#): > > I’d also add that my personal threshold would be “preponderance of evidence” not “beyond a reasonable doubt” for anything actually illegal. I see impeachment as more akin to shareholders firing the CEO than a criminal trial. Impeachment is merely charging the president, not trying or convicting him although this isn’t a critical distinction for this discussion. I agree that preponderance of the evidence is probably the highest standard I could accept but, frankly, if the charge were treason by a president colluding with a wartime enemy to undermine America, perhaps the standard should be “enough evidence that we doubt your loyalty and can’t take the risk even if you probably didn’t do it.” > [@Dahnlor](#): > > This poll hurt my brain. I’m sorry. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2019, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269/20 "2019-10-04T20:47:27Z")
Thanks, T and C, for the explanation. I’m convinced of your sincerity, FWIW. It’s an interesting and important question. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-what-types-of-actions-should-a-president-be-impeached/841269.md?page=2)