# For Women Only/Rape by Fraud **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 8, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082 "2010-09-08T18:12:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/41 "2010-09-09T03:35:38Z")
> [@Fried\_Dough\_Ho](#): > > I have been raped (three times, actually). > > And I have had sex with several men whom I discovered later were married. > > They are far from the same thing. The rape incidents shattered and scarred me. Sex with the married men only annoyed and hurt by the deception – but was far from emotionally scarring. While I respect your emotions on this matter, do you know logically why this is? In other words, what do you think makes the deception non-scarring? Or, dare I ask, what specifically is it about rape that makes it so scarring? I hope that is not an insensitive question. Feel free to ignore if it is. Also, a question for **otternell** and those who think like her: Would you also like statutory rape to have its name changed? As for me, I’m male, but I do think it technically fits how we define rape nowadays, even if it doesn’t feel like it. My rationale is the same as the OP’s: informed consent has not been reached. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/42 "2010-09-09T03:51:43Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > **Dio** voted in the poll, though. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Fried\_Dough\_Ho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Fried\_Dough\_Ho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fried_Dough_Ho)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/43 "2010-09-09T05:22:24Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > > [@Fried\_Dough\_Ho](#): > > > > I have been raped (three times, actually). > > > > And I have had sex with several men whom I discovered later were married. > > > > They are far from the same thing. The rape incidents shattered and scarred me. Sex with the married men only annoyed and hurt by the deception – but was far from emotionally scarring. > > While I respect your emotions on this matter, do you know logically why this is? In other words, what do you think makes the deception non-scarring? Or, dare I ask, what specifically is it about rape that makes it so scarring? > > I hope that is not an insensitive question. Feel free to ignore if it is. > > Also, a question for **otternell** and those who think like her: Would you also like statutory rape to have its name changed? > > As for me, I’m male, but I do think it technically fits how we define rape nowadays, even if it doesn’t feel like it. My rationale is the same as the OP’s: informed consent has not been reached. Rape is scarring because it is unwanted and un-sexual. It is an act of violence perpetrated against an unwilling participant. With the married men, at the time I was at least a willing partner with the affectations of affection and the acts were physically pleasurable. It is hard to be as emotionally scarred when there is the memory of pleasure. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/44 "2010-09-09T05:23:10Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > > [@elfkin477](#): > > > > I think it’s an open invitation to make a Men Only poll to ask if you’d consider yourself a rapist under the same circumstance. > > Uh, what? Do you think men can’t be raped, or do you just think they can’t be raped by woman? No, neither. I misunderstood your objection to “women only.” Apparently you meant “why only include women in this hypothetical situation” but I thought you meant “why do you only want women’s opinions about this hypothetical situation.” Given I thought the latter, does my response sound more reasonable now? ---
**Author:** ![nicole1912](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9de0a6/32.png) [@nicole1912](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicole1912)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/45 "2010-09-09T06:16:49Z")
> [@otternell](#): > > But I don’t like the way we (as a society) are watering down the word rape. Why can’t rape just be the brutal violent act that it is? > > I could see this scenario being called date rape, but I think we should change that phrase too. Don’t know what to change it to, but categorizing non-violent, non-brutal sexual assaults as rape, feels like it is diminishing the real repugnance of rape. IMHO, YMMV, etc. What kind of having your body violated against your will to provide sexual pleasure to someone else would the non-violent kind be? The kind where you knew and trusted the person beforehand, like your spouse? Because that almost compounds the issue, IMO. Anyway, congrats to the OP - I don’t think I’ve ever seen a unanimous poll here! I get what you say about informed consent - but you (the hypothetical woman in the OP) did consent to have sex in that situation, with that man. Him being married doesn’t change his identity or your consent to what happened - you might not have agreed to sex had you known, but it doesn’t mean you didn’t agree to sex because you found out. ---
**Author:** ![BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/46 "2010-09-09T06:26:27Z")
> [@carnut](#): > > When you lie, but I willingly have sex with you based on the lie you told me, it is not rape. But if you _ever_ do this to me, I \*will \*shame you in public. What if the lie is that I’m really good in bed? Does that get a public shaming? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/47 "2010-09-09T06:31:29Z")
> [@](#): > > but you (the hypothetical woman in the OP) did consent to have sex in that situation, with that man. Him being married doesn’t change his identity or your consent to what happened - you might not have agreed to sex had you known, but it doesn’t mean you didn’t agree to sex because you found out. But the situation was NOT as presented. It DOES change the consent, because the consent was given under the belief that a certain condition was met, that is, that the man was not married. And the man almost certainly knew that this particular woman would probably NOT agree to have sex with him if he tells the truth. If someone makes a sales pitch, and knowingly lies about a condition of the sale, then that’s considered fraud and the agreement is voided. I don’t know how the agreement could be voided in this case, but the consent was obtained fraudulently, and so there was no real consent. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/48 "2010-09-09T06:34:39Z")
I would feel deceived, I would not feel raped, but I didn’t vote because I don’t see why that makes it “not that bad”. One of the worst parts of rape/sexual assault by acquaintances is precisely the deception factor, which IME makes it worse than having the same thing done by a stranger. Rape and deception are different crimes but either one can be “the worse one” depending on the circumstances. Being told that my lover has tested negative in an HIV test when he actually knows he’s positive wouldn’t make sex with him rape, either, but it’s putting my life at risk, I don’t consider it “a small thing”. ---
**Author:** ![anya\_marie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@anya\_marie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anya_marie)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/49 "2010-09-09T08:11:49Z")
I’d be mad at myself but i’d be mad at him too telling him to lose my number and never contact me again. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/50 "2010-09-09T16:31:00Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > > [@Derleth](#): > > > > What makes this ‘women only’? That makes no sense at all. > > I think it’s an open invitation to make a Men Only poll to ask if you’d consider yourself a rapist under the same circumstance. > > Or, **The Flying Dutchman** doesn’t give a fig about what men think of the rape status in that circumstance since presumably it’s harder for dudes to relate to how women would/should feel without coloring their opinion their own feelings. …And, meanwhile, no-one gives a fig how men feel who’ve been the deceived rather than the deceiver. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/51 "2010-09-09T16:42:41Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > but you (the hypothetical woman in the OP) did consent to have sex in that situation, with that man. Him being married doesn’t change his identity or your consent to what happened - you might not have agreed to sex had you known, but it doesn’t mean you didn’t agree to sex because you found out. > > But the situation was NOT as presented. It DOES change the consent, because the consent was given under the belief that a certain condition was met, that is, that the man was not married. And the man almost certainly knew that this particular woman would probably NOT agree to have sex with him if he tells the truth. > > If someone makes a sales pitch, and knowingly lies about a condition of the sale, then that’s considered fraud and the agreement is voided. I don’t know how the agreement could be voided in this case, but the consent was obtained fraudulently, and so there was no real consent. :rolleyes: What if he told you he was 6’1" and he was really 5’11"? What if he said he was a Green Beret and he was an Army Ranger? What if he said he was Christian but was actually Jewish? ---
**Author:** ![nicole1912](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9de0a6/32.png) [@nicole1912](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicole1912)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/52 "2010-09-09T17:00:05Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > > > But the situation was NOT as presented. It DOES change the consent, because the consent was given under the belief that a certain condition was met, that is, that the man was not married. And the man almost certainly knew that this particular woman would probably NOT agree to have sex with him if he tells the truth. > > > > If someone makes a sales pitch, and knowingly lies about a condition of the sale, then that’s considered fraud and the agreement is voided. I don’t know how the agreement could be voided in this case, but the consent was obtained fraudulently, and so there was no real consent. > > :rolleyes: > > What if he told you he was 6’1" and he was really 5’11"? What if he said he was a Green Beret and he was an Army Ranger? What if he said he was Christian but was actually Jewish? That’s kind of what I was going to say. Yes, he lied to get you to agree to sleep with him. And you probably wouldn’t have done so otherwise. But that makes him a crappy person; it doesn’t mean you didn’t agree to have sex (that’s why he was lying, after all) and so it doesn’t mean you were raped. You can’t withdraw consent after the event, if you agreed, you agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/53 "2010-09-09T17:01:00Z")
People misrepresent themselves in order to get laid all. the. time. Sure, the OP offered a particularly egregious example. But there’s a continuum that begins with, say, makeup and Spanx and ends with outright lying about your availability. Things that cause icky feelings don’t magically become rape just because there’s sex in the mix. To try to lump this kind of thing in with rape is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/54 "2010-09-09T17:22:19Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > …And, meanwhile, no-one gives a fig how men feel who’ve been the deceived rather than the deceiver. :dubious: Look, start your own poll. I have a suggestion. 'Men, how would you feel if you went to bed with a gorgeous woman, she’s just sucked you off, and as she rolls you over in the dark you suddenly experience 9 inches of man meat shoved up your ass. Would you feel raped ?" ---
**Author:** ![Beadalin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Beadalin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beadalin)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/55 "2010-09-09T17:24:04Z")
Yeah that’s totally the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/56 "2010-09-09T17:26:01Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Look, start your own poll. > > I have a suggestion. > > 'Men, how would you feel if you went to bed with a gorgeous woman, she’s just sucked you off, and as she rolls you over in the dark you suddenly experience 9 inches of man meat shoved up your ass. > Would you feel raped ?" LOL. If I found an unrequested penis _shoved up my ass_, yes, raped. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/57 "2010-09-09T17:32:05Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > > Look, start your own poll. > > > > I have a suggestion. > > > > 'Men, how would you feel if you went to bed with a gorgeous woman, she’s just sucked you off, and as she rolls you over in the dark you suddenly experience 9 inches of man meat shoved up your ass. > > Would you feel raped ?" > > LOL. If I found an unrequested penis _shoved up my ass_, yes, raped. You don’t count because you’re a singular woman who apparently takes deception very seriously. Mind explaining your vote in the poll that denied unanimity ? ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/58 "2010-09-09T17:35:59Z")
> [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](#): > > > [@carnut](#): > > > > When you lie, but I willingly have sex with you based on the lie you told me, it is not rape. But if you _ever_ do this to me, I \*will \*shame you in public. > > What if the lie is that I’m really good in bed? Does that get a public shaming? The lie was that you told me you were single and you were married. I am not beyond announcing, in public, in front of your spousal partner, what happened. While I wouldn’t really want to give her pain, I have learned not to let myself be a victim. Too bad I didn’t learn it before I was raped. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/59 "2010-09-09T17:36:37Z")
I just thought the “yes” row looked a little lonely. ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/60 "2010-09-09T17:56:05Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > but you (the hypothetical woman in the OP) did consent to have sex in that situation, with that man. Him being married doesn’t change his identity or your consent to what happened - you might not have agreed to sex had you known, but it doesn’t mean you didn’t agree to sex because you found out. > > But the situation was NOT as presented. It DOES change the consent, because the consent was given under the belief that a certain condition was met, that is, that the man was not married. And the man almost certainly knew that this particular woman would probably NOT agree to have sex with him if he tells the truth. > > If someone makes a sales pitch, and knowingly lies about a condition of the sale, then that’s considered fraud and the agreement is voided. I don’t know how the agreement could be voided in this case, but the consent was obtained fraudulently, and so there was no real consent. So you are claiming that this is rape? How about a guy who woos his partner with tales of his fabulous wealth and promises of fancy vacations, but is actually unemployed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082.md?page=4)