# For Women Only/Rape by Fraud **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 8, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082 "2010-09-08T18:12:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/61 "2010-09-09T18:18:42Z")
> [@Trom](#): > > How about a guy who woos his partner with tales of his fabulous wealth and promises of fancy vacations, but is actually unemployed? She’s a whore \*and \*he’s a rapist. Look, there are many shades of rape. Not all rapes involve a black mask and a dark alley. Rape is sex without consent. If you know that the other person would not be in bed with you if they knew the truth, then it is rape. If it helps, if a woman says she’s on birth control, and really isn’t, that is also rape to my way of thinking. Just because it’s not legally actionable does not mean it isn’t rape. Tricking someone into bed is rape. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/62 "2010-09-09T18:29:58Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > If it helps, if a woman says she’s on birth control, and really isn’t, that is also rape to my way of thinking. If it helps?? How does exhibiting your dead wrong way of thinking help? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/63 "2010-09-09T18:32:00Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > I just thought the “yes” row looked a little lonely. There is a statistical term for that. Or maybe it’s an advertising thing. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/64 "2010-09-09T18:36:20Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Look, start your own poll. > > I have a suggestion. > > 'Men, how would you feel if you went to bed with a gorgeous woman, she’s just sucked you off, and as she rolls you over in the dark you suddenly experience 9 inches of man meat shoved up your ass. Would you feel raped ?" No more than I do by this retarded attempt to draw an equivalence. ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/65 "2010-09-09T18:39:48Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > > [@Trom](#): > > > > How about a guy who woos his partner with tales of his fabulous wealth and promises of fancy vacations, but is actually unemployed? > > She’s a whore \*and \*he’s a rapist. > > Look, there are many shades of rape. Not all rapes involve a black mask and a dark alley. Rape is sex without consent. If you know that the other person would not be in bed with you if they knew the truth, then it is rape. > > If it helps, if a woman says she’s on birth control, and really isn’t, that is also rape to my way of thinking. > > Just because it’s not legally actionable does not mean it isn’t rape. Tricking someone into bed is rape. Dick (ha!) thinks living with genital herpes would make his life unpleasant. Dick doesn’t want herpes. Jane has genital herpes and doesn’t inform Dick of her condition, but is aware that he doesn’t want herpes. Dick and Jane have sex and Dick contracts herpes. You argue that Dick was raped and Jane should go to jail for many years? ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/66 "2010-09-09T18:47:03Z")
> [@Trom](#): > > > [@TruCelt](#): > > > > She’s a whore \*and \*he’s a rapist. > > > > Look, there are many shades of rape. Not all rapes involve a black mask and a dark alley. Rape is sex without consent. If you know that the other person would not be in bed with you if they knew the truth, then it is rape. > > > > If it helps, if a woman says she’s on birth control, and really isn’t, that is also rape to my way of thinking. > > > > **Just because it’s not legally actionable does not mean it isn’t rape. Tricking someone into bed is rape**. > > Dick (ha!) thinks living with genital herpes would make his life unpleasant. Dick doesn’t want herpes. > > Jane has genital herpes and doesn’t inform Dick of her condition, but is aware that he doesn’t want herpes. Dick and Jane have sex and Dick contracts herpes. > > You argue that Dick was raped and Jane should go to jail for many years? Check the bolded line again. I am saying that there is a moral definition of rape as well as a legal one. I am not trying to weaken our response to the more egregious forms; I am trying to heighten awareness of the pervasiveness of rape in our society. And yes, Dick was raped. I don’t know of any legal criminal definition that woudl cover what Jane did, although if it were HIV she could be charged with “criminal reckless transmission.” Nzinga - I thought it might help to show that I hold myself and my own sex to the same standard that I hold men. Too often rape is viewed as a man-on-woman event. While that is a majority of rapes, it is by no means all. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/67 "2010-09-09T18:50:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > > Look, start your own poll. > > > > I have a suggestion. > > > > 'Men, how would you feel if you went to bed with a gorgeous woman, she’s just sucked you off, and as she rolls you over in the dark you suddenly experience 9 inches of man meat shoved up your ass. Would you feel raped ?" > > No more than I do by this retarded attempt to draw an equivalence. Let’s focus on one of the two aspects of your post . Am I clear that if you were subjected to the scenario that I outlined, you would not feel raped ? ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/68 "2010-09-09T18:50:48Z")
I used to think I wore lip gloss because it made me look prettier, but really, I was raping people’s minds. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/69 "2010-09-09T19:01:20Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > I used to think I wore lip gloss because it made me look prettier, but really, I was raping people’s minds. I’ve got friends with hair weave, fake eyelashes, fake nails, colored eye contacts and girdles. I can imagine a man feels prison gangbanged by the time he realizes the level of deceit that went into getting him in the sack. ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/70 "2010-09-09T19:02:25Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > > [@Trom](#): > > > > Dick (ha!) thinks living with genital herpes would make his life unpleasant. Dick doesn’t want herpes. > > > > Jane has genital herpes and doesn’t inform Dick of her condition, but is aware that he doesn’t want herpes. Dick and Jane have sex and Dick contracts herpes. > > > > You argue that Dick was raped and Jane should go to jail for many years? > > Check the bolded line again. > > I am saying that there is a moral definition of rape as well as a legal one. I am not trying to weaken our response to the more egregious forms; I am trying to heighten awareness of the pervasiveness of rape in our society. And yes, Dick was raped. I don’t know of any legal criminal definition that woudl cover what Jane did, although if it were HIV she could be charged with “criminal reckless transmission.” > > Nzinga - I thought it might help to show that I hold myself and my own sex to the same standard that I hold men. Too often rape is viewed as a man-on-woman event. While that is a majority of rapes, it is by no means all. Well, she tricked him by posing as a non-herpes infected individual. Clearly, she’s a rapist. I get where your coming from, but I think it is ridiculous to lump all incidents of personal misrepresentation in a sexual context under the umbrella of “rape.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/71 "2010-09-09T19:53:03Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Am I clear that if you were subjected to the scenario that I outlined, you would not feel raped ? Yes, I would. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/72 "2010-09-09T20:14:12Z")
Rape by deception is a toughie. I think it ought to be confined to carefully chosen categories - for example, deception as to the identity of a specific person (for example, a person pretending to be your SO in the dark, and you only find out about it later). Otherwise, if it is too widely defined as any sort of deception that could go to consent, it suffers from the weakness of being open ended and subject to absurd triviality. To my mind, saying you are single when you are not would not be sufficient. It isn’t obvious on its face that, but for the lie, consent would not have been given. Those who lie about STDs and infect others thereby because they did not know to take precautions are guilty of some sort of tortious conduct, but “rape” to my mind doesn’t fit right at all. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/73 "2010-09-09T20:39:01Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > > [@MeanOldLady](#): > > > > I used to think I wore lip gloss because it made me look prettier, but really, I was raping people’s minds. > > I’ve got friends with hair weave, fake eyelashes, fake nails, colored eye contacts and girdles. I can imagine a man feels prison gangbanged by the time he realizes the level of deceit that went into getting him in the sack. If she knew going in that if his consent was based upon her representation that these attributes were natural, then yes, it would be. I’m not saying it makes him a nice guy, but if that is the basis of his consent, and she knowingly misleads him, it’s rape (again, in the moral rather than the criminal sense). I thoguht there was a case a while back of a man telling people he ws Tom Cruise, and being charged with rape as a result. I don’t dare google it from work though. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/74 "2010-09-09T21:48:40Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s kind of what I was going to say. Yes, he lied to get you to agree to sleep with him. And you probably wouldn’t have done so otherwise. But that makes him a crappy person; it doesn’t mean you didn’t agree to have sex (that’s why he was lying, after all) and so it doesn’t mean you were raped. You can’t withdraw consent after the event, if you agreed, you agreed. The consent was conditional. I just got done signing a bunch of legal paperwork. If some or part of the conditions are not factual, then the contract is void. If someone misrepresents a condition, the bargain/consent is no good. The person who says “I’m single” or “I’m disease free” knows very well that being single or disease free is a dealbreaker, and if s/he lies about the dealbreaker, then sex probably won’t happen. I’m not sure if it’s actually rape (which is why I haven’t voted) but it’s certainly not “just not that bad”. It IS a big deal. If it wasn’t a big deal, then the person wouldn’t have lied about it. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/75 "2010-09-09T22:19:22Z")
Lynn, if someone says to you, “I’m single” but all along he has a girlfriend, he is an ass. But! Because humans have developed the ability to lie, we have to all learn to live in a world where we know we can be lied to. That is why relationships are hard. Because, you can’t just trust the first man to say to you, “I love you, I need you, I can’t live without you, if you sleep with me, I will never be with anyone else ever again, and oh, by the way, I just left the dr. and I have a clean bill of health”. We can’t be naive like that. We all have to take time to get to know and trust those that we expect honesty from. And we have to accept that there is no way to guarantee honesty. For instance, some men say they will love you and stay with you forever if you sleep with them. Then they leave. Have you been raped??? In marriage vows, I’m pretty sure most people promise to stay together until death. Then they divorce. Have they been raped?? I mean, surely, there are times when a groom or bride has already been divorced, so therefore knows it is very possible to fall out of love…but they still give the ‘till death do us part’ line. That’s not rape. We have to draw a line. Let’s draw it at consent to sex. Right then and there, using the knowledge you have about the situation and the person you are with, and your ability to be skeptical, logical and non-gullible. Just straight up consent. If you say no (or are knocked out) and he takes the sex anyways, that’s rape. I think we should stick with that line. ETA: I think the OP means not that bad \*compared to \*what we usually think of as rape. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/76 "2010-09-09T22:42:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > > > Am I clear that if you were subjected to the scenario that I outlined, you would not feel raped ? > > Yes, I would. So what? You would feel raped or you wouldn’t ? Your answer might clarify your original post to me. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/77 "2010-09-09T22:46:03Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > For instance, some men say they will love you and stay with you forever if you sleep with them. Then they leave. Have you been raped??? Yes. Seriously now, well said, and line for line, good post. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/78 "2010-09-09T22:54:16Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > > [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > > > For instance, some men say they will love you and stay with you forever if you sleep with them. Then they leave. Have you been raped??? > > Yes. I never get tired of giggling at your shenanigans. But, yeah, man. I’m tired of women being painted as defenseless, gullible victims. If someone rapes me, they betta be prepared to take it by full force or threat of full force, because a few white lies aint gonna do it for my streetwise, sassy savvy ass. Now if you slip me a roofie or put a knife to my neck, then I think we can agree that one, “this is rape” and two, “Nzinga can be quite cooperative when she wants to be or is unconcious”. ---
**Author:** ![Stauderhorse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Stauderhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stauderhorse)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/79 "2010-09-09T23:08:16Z")
I’d feel betrayed and really horrified but not raped. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082/80 "2010-09-10T03:20:37Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > You would feel raped or you wouldn’t ? Your answer might clarify your original post to me. I would feel raped. Again, so what? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-women-only-rape-by-fraud/553082.md?page=5)