# For you, does Christmas have anything to do with Christianity? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 9, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589 "2009-12-09T15:04:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/41 "2009-12-09T16:43:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So, Jesus woulda loved him some bacon, right? Well… > > …maybe not. Thanks. That is clear as crystal mud. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/42 "2009-12-09T16:45:03Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Wow. You really be dropping the knowledge on me about Christianity! I always thought Moses brought the law, but Jesus released them from it. I vaguely remember something about Peter being told he can eat of all the things on the table now? Or some quote about it not being what goes in a body that defiles it, but what comes out? I’m sorry to hijack. Please straighten me out though, even if it is by PM. Did Jesus actually frown on eating pork? Of course. He was Jewish. 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. ( **Matthew 5:17-18** ) The stuff about Jeus having abolished the law came from Paul’s repackaging of Jesus to the Gentiles and from later Christian tradition, not so much from Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/43 "2009-12-09T16:46:28Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Thanks. That is clear as crystal mud. It’s contradictory because the New Testament is contradictory. Pauline Christianity was not the same as what Jesus originally taught. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/44 "2009-12-09T16:48:55Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Thanks. That is clear as crystal mud. Don’t blame me. Cops generally find that eyewitness accounts of things that happened _two hours ago_ are hopelessly contradictory. Frankly, it’s surprising that the various accounts of Jesus’ life aren’t more contradictory, considering most of them were written years, decades or even centuries later, and described things that probably didn’t even happen, at least in part. Oh, and that they’ve been translated at least twice when you read them in English. ---
**Author:** ![Umbriel2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/4af34b/32.png) [@Umbriel2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Umbriel2)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/45 "2009-12-09T16:49:42Z")
Only in the broadest, Peace on Earth, Good Will Toward Men sense. I think that’s distinguished a bit from Christmas’ pre-Christian themes of simple celebration, which were more along the lines of what are currently embodied in New Year’s Eve. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/46 "2009-12-09T16:58:28Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Of course. He was Jewish. I know that. Don’t condencend to me, Diogenes. Thanks for clearing it up for me. Thanks to RNATB, too. And merry Christmas to all. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/47 "2009-12-09T17:08:34Z")
I am quite active in my church, and even so the Christmas season is 30% religious, 70% cultural. We light advent candles, attend services, sing hymns, and will have discussions of the birth of Christ. Religion is certainly more prevalent this time of year. However, the Santa side and the presents and the office gift exchange and the tree are cultural celebrations in my eyes. Easter, on the other hand, is 90% religion and 10% the meal and the egg hunt for us. It is the resurrection that matters most, that final fulfillment of prophecy. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/48 "2009-12-09T17:18:35Z")
I experience it as heavily Christian. It’s not as if we’re secularly celebrating with pagan traditions co-opted by Muslims or Jews–these are syncretic, Northern European _Christian_ symbols and rituals celebrated in relation to a Christian holy day. Hanging a swag or wreath is not, to my mind, any more secular than putting up a tree, though in some places, the logic seems to be that if it’s not a tree, it’s not a “Christmas” decoration. However, in Jewish communities you will not find decorations of pine, holly, or doves. Those are not Jewish (or Judeo-pagan) symbols and do not symbolize Jewish holidays. They are not ecumenical; they are Christian. People of Christian extraction or heritage may experience them as secular, but to non-Christian people, they generally aren’t secular because they have a relationship to Christian expression and not to other religions’ expressions of co-occurring holidays. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/49 "2009-12-09T17:20:37Z")
Completely secular for me. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/50 "2009-12-09T17:44:14Z")
Unfortunately no. If it was a religious thing I could refuse to participate ☹ ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/51 "2009-12-09T17:44:54Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It doesn’t bother you that the birth of Jesus didn’t actually occur on December 25? No, why should it? We don’t know the date he was born on (the calendar has changed a couple of times since then anyway)–in spring sometime seems to be the best guess, but we have Easter then anyhow. The symbolism is good. 12/25 is a good time to have a party. The exact date of birth is not terribly important IMO–certainly I don’t think God cares. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/52 "2009-12-09T18:22:11Z")
**Skammer** said in essence that he tries to confine birth-of-Christ stuff to the “actual Christmas season”, which suggests that he ascribes some sort of significance to those particular dates. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/53 "2009-12-09T18:22:57Z")
Some people speculate that Jesus was born in the fall because that was the time of year when Shepherds tended their flocks at night. Of course, that relies on Luke’s story about the shepherds and the angels having any historical basis. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/54 "2009-12-09T18:26:53Z")
Awfully thoughtless of him not to be born on January 1, that’s all I can say. And to think we named both sides of the Gregorian calendar continuum after him. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/55 "2009-12-09T18:42:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > **Skammer** said in essence that he tries to confine birth-of-Christ stuff to the “actual Christmas season”, which suggests that he ascribes some sort of significance to those particular dates. Ah, only in the liturgical sense. The church calendar in Catholic and mainline protestant denominations celebrates Advent season starting from the fourth Sunday before Christmas until Christmas Day. Advent season is a time of hope and expectation, both in the eschatological sense (waiting for Jesus’ return) and the historical sense (preparing for the observance of Christmas). The season of Christmas, on the liturgical church calendar, starts Dec 25 (Chistmas Day) and ends twelve days later with the Feast of the Epiphany. “The Twelve Days of Christmas,” don’t you know. Liturgical Nazis (which I am prone to be) will eschew celebrating Christmas until Dec 25, so as not to deprive oneself of experiencing the Advent season of anticipation. Personally I do not wish anyone a “Merry Christmas” until 12/25 and I leave my tree/lights up and lit until Epiphany. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/56 "2009-12-09T19:44:21Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Don’t blame me. Cops generally find that eyewitness accounts of things that happened _two hours ago_ are hopelessly contradictory. Frankly, it’s surprising that the various accounts of Jesus’ life aren’t more contradictory, considering most of them were written years, decades or even centuries later, and described things that probably didn’t even happen, at least in part. > > Oh, and that they’ve been translated at least twice when you read them in English. But the elimination of the dietary restrictions comes directly from Peter’s account, not from anything that happened during the life of Jesus, so there isn’t really a contradiction in this case. Peter just threw out hundreds of years of Jewish law thanks to a dream coming from his stomach, no doubt. That he needed to do it indicates that Jesus kept kosher. In any case, it was pure marketing. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/57 "2009-12-09T19:45:28Z")
Zero religion for me - no angels on our tree. I figure that Christians co-opted some nice pagan solstice rituals, and now we pagans are taking them back. Only seems fair. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/58 "2009-12-09T19:46:40Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > Unfortunately no. If it was a religious thing I could refuse to participate ☹ That hasn’t stopped me. “I don’t celebrate Christmas” isn’t an excuse? ---
**Author:** ![maladroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@maladroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maladroit)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/59 "2009-12-09T19:52:05Z")
My family was not religious at all, but we had a nativity set and some angel figurines. I was fond of baby Jesus. I used to play with it like a doll house. That’s as far as we went with the religion aspect. It was all about Santa, tree, presents, food, family and time off school. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589/60 "2009-12-09T19:58:27Z")
Sure, it’s got plenty to do with Christianity. If it weren’t at least partly about the baby Jesus, why would we call it Christ’s Mass instead of Festivus, Solstice Day, or whatever? Personally, I find that talking about the trappings of Christmas, whether they be overtly Christian or more secular/pagan, really clouds the issue. The details of _how_ one celebrates doesn’t really have much to do with _why_ one celebrates. A birthday isn’t about cake and balloons. A wedding anniversary isn’t about champagne and sex. Baby showers aren’t about punch and silly games. Those things are part and parcel of how those things are typically celebrated, yes, and they’re what a lot of people immediately think of when you talk about those events. I’d even go so far as to say they’re the bulk of what people consciously think about when planning or partaking in those festivities. But those things aren’t what any of those events are _about._ But then at the same time you have a lot of atheists and agnostics who participate either because they want parties and presents too, or because of social pressure that comes from Christian ideals and imagery being so pervasive in our culture. It’s rather a mess, really, but I really think if you keep the name, the date, and the traditions, it’s hard to say you’re really celebrating something else entirely. It would be like someone throwing a party on my birthday, inviting me, making a cake with candles, giving me a present…and then claiming that it wasn’t a birthday party. It’s just very :dubious:, if you see what I mean. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/for-you-does-christmas-have-anything-to-do-with-christianity/520589.md?page=4)