# Forbidden Randomness of the Unspoiled Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 20, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111 "2010-03-20T04:14:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/181 "2010-04-22T17:09:16Z")
BTW, sach, sorry for jumping the gun here; I thought somehow the witching hour was 11 instead of 1. (Not that it makes a whole lot of difference anyway.) ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/182 "2010-04-22T17:59:13Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Chronos: It seems like the only way that I play the game _well_ is if I take it personally, and if I’m going to completely half-ass all my games the way I did story’s game on idle, there’s no point. I’m going to take Jimmy’s advice to Meeko on this one; not worth the aggro. Consider the Malazan Deck of Dragon’s game that will be run on Idlemafia in the near future. It’s similar to Mafia, but everyone’s playing for themselves (no town, no scum) and the only way to win is to choose your allies carefully. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/183 "2010-04-22T18:31:20Z")
I think I can now make the claim that my play as the Vig was the worst in the history of the game. Not only did I not kill a scum when doing so would have been a simple continuation of the policy I had established by killing a townie earlier (second place, close vote, etc.), but my failure to pull the trigger also indirectly led to a good player not wanting to play the game anymore ever. So that’s pretty good. My bad play affected _all future games_. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/184 "2010-04-22T19:00:37Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I think I can now make the claim that my play as the Vig was the worst in the history of the game. Not only did I not kill a scum when doing so would have been a simple continuation of the policy I had established by killing a townie earlier (second place, close vote, etc.), but my failure to pull the trigger also indirectly led to a good player not wanting to play the game anymore ever. > > So that’s pretty good. My bad play affected _all future games_. Yeah, when you put it that way, you really suck! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/185 "2010-04-22T19:03:33Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > I think I can now make the claim that my play as the Vig was the worst in the history of the game. Not only did I not kill a scum when doing so would have been a simple continuation of the policy I had established by killing a townie earlier (second place, close vote, etc.), but my failure to pull the trigger also indirectly led to a good player not wanting to play the game anymore ever. > > So that’s pretty good. My bad play affected _all future games_. 🙂 More like, it led to a player realizing the game was not for him. I think I would have come to that conclusion fairly soon regardless. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/186 "2010-04-22T19:08:25Z")
I find playing Scum to be much more of a drag than playing Town. Though, I’ve only been scum once. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/187 "2010-04-22T19:44:37Z")
Your play had bad results, but that’s not the same thing as making bad plays. Just the numbers game alone was enough to justify taking the first shot but not the second: With the first shot, you were guaranteed to not decrease our number of mislynches, while the second shot (had you hit Town) would have. And even if you had killed Tom, that would have left us with an odd number of players, which hurts Town. ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/188 "2010-04-22T23:54:17Z")
Tom, I do hope that you come back. I hope that after a break, it might be fun again. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/189 "2010-04-23T00:49:15Z")
Quoth **Drain Bead** : > [@](#): > > Well, wasn’t the other dead Scum George Washington? Down the way of analyzing role names lies madness in this game, I think. Not only is it damned easy to make shit up, it’s also not guaranteed that Scum are going to get evil names. Unknown. The other dead Scum was a president, but he might have been Nixon or Jackson or someone. Washington would then be a logical fake claim, in case there was a role that could detect the “profession” part. The more relevant evidence, I think, is that we had a Town-aligned Wicked Witch. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2010, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/190 "2010-04-23T00:55:14Z")
And Benedict Arnold. ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/191 "2010-04-28T17:28:09Z")
I’m rather confused - what’s Ly/Lo that they keep talking about? And why does it matter? I think it’s referring to another game, but damned if I can figure that out. Sorry - newbie. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/192 "2010-04-28T17:36:44Z")
> [@Snickers](#): > > I’m rather confused - what’s Ly/Lo that they keep talking about? And why does it matter? I think it’s referring to another game, but damned if I can figure that out. > > Sorry - newbie. Ly/lo means lynch or lose. It refers to the game state where town must lynch scum or lose the game. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/193 "2010-04-28T19:09:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **Drain Bead** :Unknown. The other dead Scum was a president, but he might have been Nixon or Jackson or someone. Washington would then be a logical fake claim, in case there was a role that could detect the “profession” part. The more relevant evidence, I think, is that we had a Town-aligned Wicked Witch. yeh, i really like how **sach** tagged me with that one. i mean i don’t for a second think that he would game anything but it was freaking ironic. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/194 "2010-04-29T20:13:06Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Because he sees this as a flaw in himself, and wants to fix it. And he has been told that playing is the only way to get better, and has experienced that as a gamer. It’s quite common in people like Meeko who do not consider themselves to be “normal.” > > It doesn’t help that he had a lot of fun in the first on-board game he played. But I think a lot of that came because he won. > > I don’t disparage Meeko for this, I suppose he is like me. If I backed out of everything just because I wasn’t having fun, I would never do anything. Every game has its frustrations. Meeko just feels them more fully, and let’s them get to him. It’s a hard flaw to break. Did I mention I would move mountains to play Mafia with you? \*\*Yeah, Make that the Universe. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/195 "2010-04-29T20:50:56Z")
And here we go with the Holy Grail of BigT and Meeko conversations. BigT, I would trust you to the end of the universe, but I think I need to inject clarifications where possible. On the whole you continue to hit my nail on the head, but, I think I need to add some, and take some from here. My comments in the quote box are followed by \>\>\> > [@BigT](#): > > I think Meeko’s ADHD is a lot worse. And when I say he thinks himself as weird, I mean more like not neurotypical. Like there’s something wrong with the way his brain works. That there’s something wrong with him. > > \>\>\> I Embrace my life as it is. I would not want to change it, or indeed become “Normal”. Not that that term is easy to define. On the other hand, there is stuff I would like to catch myself in the process of doing wrong things, and have valid and trusted input from others on why those things happen. > > \>\>\> Not sure I am that far gone, or at least, I attact people to me that I KNOW are further gone. > > Good reading! It’s kinda my SOP to take things leveled at people I identify with personally. But I didn’t notice it was happening here. > > \>\>\> SOP ? > > \>\>\> But yes, we do seem to have a, for lack of better terms, a Gaydar type attraction. Obviously, I don’t know your orientation, I just use the term Gaydar as a best fit. I’m Straight, not that that should matter in the least. > That’s what I’m trying to explain. I’m going to have to get more specific. I think he has a learning disorder, something like Mafia Asperger’s. I think he misses a lot of nuance in the game. I don’t think he gets a lot of the things that are self-evident to others. I think he would do good to have someone spell out the self-evident stuff. > > \>\>\> I am not one for small talk. I despise Pep Rallys and Cheer Leading. I hate ““fake”” especially if it leads nowhere. If you want to ask me a real question about something, don’t ask me about the weather or a sports team. Sugar Coating does nothing, you still have to swallow the real problem, and the sugar is just extra calories. > > \>\>\> I prefer things to be Blunt. I believe in the truth, and I will tell you the truth, tact has little place in anything. > > My reason is that, when he has a concrete way to improve, he jumps on it. There’s the whole outline thing he does in this game. And he jumps on terms and does his best to understand them. Bussing was one he didn’t get, and now he does. > > \>\>\> I would like to think so. I still believe that I am games away from being the best player I can be, and frankly, once I am there, I will be ahead of the curve. > > What’s forcing him to play is himself. The Asperger’s thing fits here too. HE gets really focus on wanting to do one particular thing. Mafia is his obsession. He thinks he should be good at it. He thinks he can figure it out. I suspect it’s also a way to “fit in” with the mafia crowd. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me that the stuff that happens to him in Mafia often happens in real life. More below. > > \>\>\> The thing is, I read all of this before I responded, and I even forgot that you said this. In light of my above response, I guess we can both agree that this paragraph is close to truth. I don’t believe I have Aspergers, but, a few of the symptoms, if you will is not that far removed from me. > > \>\>\> Interesting that you call it an obsession. Not sure where my Opinion is on that. I think that I should be better than most people that play Mafia, frankly. If experience doesn’t help to figure things out, then a lot of us are screwed. Yes, it would seem that most of my life, I end up with less than a normal person has, but I make the best go at it, with what I have, that I can, and I think I get remakrable mileage on it. > I’m not trying to say anyone does. I was more trying to say that I understand it. I have OCD. I understand getting stuck on something and continuing to do it not because it makes me happy, but because not doing it makes me less happy. I think it really, really bugs him that he’s not good at this game. > > \>\>\> I think it really, really bugs him that he’s not good at this game. > > \>\>\> **YES.** Further, I see a lot of people playing at a level less than they could be playing at. It drives me BONKERS to think that people chose to enter Mafia with one hand tied behind their back. It’s near heartbreaking to me to think, that I might over-think all of Mafia. The entire prospect that to me, approaching Mafia with less intellect could mean I could fare far better simply does not compute. [[There is a pun or something in there, but I think I made my point.]] > > I think it’s probably a strategy that he’s seen work before, in other games. Quite often, persistence in a game is precisely what makes it fun, especially for someone like Meeko, who seems to define fun by winning. > > \>\>\> Michael Jordan had what, a season, playing for the White Sox? I think he got the message that he was no good at baseball. Not quite sure I’m getting that message yet in Mafia. Despite the apparent evidence, I still feel like Mafia is one of the more perfect games for me. Perhaps this is more true, if I am optimal play, and everyone else is as well. > > It doesn’t help that, a lot of time, his inability to be understood makes people annoyed or even mad. I think he likely experiences it a lot in real life, and that, if he can fix it in this game, he can fix it in the macrocosm of real life. (though I bet this is subconscious). > > \>\>\> Damn. Thats, … Deep comes up “shallow” in trying to explain that metaphor. > > \>\>\> I’m an introvert, and I just recently found three jobs. One basically few through, the other is a family job. My Census job starts on Monday. > > \>\>\> I have yet to have that much real life expereince, frankly, to determine if your macrocosm example holds true. That is, Mafia for me has been the only real example of interactions on such a level. I am forced to conclude you are correct, that if I can fix it in Mafia, I can fix it in real life, even if Mafia for the past months has nearly been all of my life. > > Two things: I suspect he doesn’t think in such big picture terms. It’s probably never really crossed his mind WHY he wants to play. I don’t think he really gets the theme that this game is designed to make people nitpicky and distrustful. He may get it on some superficial level, but not to the point where it doesn’t really bother him that he’s Town and no one trusts him. > > \>\>\> Again, I think you are close enough to truth here. I mean, yes, Scum need to be distrustful and nitpicky. I Get that. > > \>\>\> What is the excuse for fellow town? > > Second, I don’t think he has much else to do. And he’s ADHD, so he’s gonna be chronically bored. So I think that, even getting upset in Mafia is more exciting and more fun than his normal day. He’s got to constantly be doing something. > > \>\>\> Another “” Deep “” comes up shallow moment here. But yes, I remain bored, 15 minutes seems like 30 to me. Not so sure I call Mafia Losses ““Excitement””, but at the same time, I must get some payoff from it. I just feel that I am the scapegoat for how bad these games go. I own what I know, I own what I can, I would like for other players to do the same. > > BTW, did you ever see his [videos](http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Electronicwaffle#g/u)? I think they’re really enlightening on who he is, particularly the ones where he’s just talking to the camera. I wish I could more specific, but a lot of my impressions of him came from this. Yeah, and frankly, I think my video on ADHD is my best video. Go figure. The ones where I am just talking were an attempt at Stand-up comedy. But, if the truth oft said in jest, well, there you go. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/196 "2010-04-29T22:45:34Z")
WIFOM time: Will **Rysto** protect himself toNight, as he said he would, or will he count on Scum believing that he will, and protect **Cookies** instead? Will Scum target **Cookies** , on the assumption that **Rysto** will self-protect, or will they guess that **Rysto** is bluffing, and target him, or will they avoid the question by targeting someone else? Myself, I’m guessing that **Rysto** protects **Cookies** , but I can’t say what the Scum will do without knowing who they are. If **Rysto** truly intended to protect himself for the entire game, he never would have said so, but I don’t know whether the Scum will conclude that. In any event, after toNight, if he survives, he should go back to self-protecting, since the bluff won’t work twice. ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/197 "2010-04-30T00:53:18Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > WIFOM time: Will **Rysto** protect himself toNight, as he said he would, or will he count on Scum believing that he will, and protect **Cookies** instead? There was a scene during one episode of the new show “Human Target” where a character had to cut a wire in order to defuse a bomb. Incredulously, he flips a coin, in front of someone else, and then based on the flip decides which wire to cut. He successfully defuses the bomb using the coin flip. It’s probably worth evaluating the amount of effort expended in “Deciding” what to do, over committing to a single coin flip and leaving it at that. Then again, my track record with flipping a coin probably should be enough to scare anyone away from it. Don’t think it is an exact comparison though, as a doc protect is not a vig kill. ---
**Author:** ![TexCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/texcat/32/9041_2.png) [@TexCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TexCat)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/198 "2010-04-30T04:02:56Z")
Interesting considerations. Instead of spending time flipping the coin, I think going with your first gut is best. Just pick the wire, just pick Rysto or Cookies and go with it. First gut, don’t think about it just do it. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/199 "2010-04-30T22:19:33Z")
> [@TexCat](#): > > Interesting considerations. Instead of spending time flipping the coin, I think going with your first gut is best. Just pick the wire, just pick Rysto or Cookies and go with it. First gut, don’t think about it just do it. I’ve actually used that as a good reason to flip a coin. When I flip it, I usually find myself wishing for one side or the other. That tells me which one is my gut check. That doesn’t mean that would be the one I went with, though. If I was more often wrong than right, I’d choose the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111/200 "2010-05-01T17:36:07Z")
Damn it. I really thought my 7-2o was going to hold up until the river. :mad: I think that this was quite possibly the worst game of mafia I’ve ever played in my life, and that’s saying something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-randomness-of-the-unspoiled-mafia/533111.md?page=11)