# Forbidden thread for Hawkeye's mafia game. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 31, 2008, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457 "2008-10-31T16:49:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/41 "2008-11-08T05:50:49Z")
Thanks cookies, between my incompetence at searching and the search delay it has taken me nearly 20 minutes to find these. Eva here is the original mafia game thread - it explains a fair bit about the game [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=407197&highlight=werewolf](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=407197&highlight=werewolf) and here is the summary thread of significant moments which may explain some of the running jokes. - a bit out of date [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=464384&highlight=mafia](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=464384&highlight=mafia) Later games tend to get more complex and add more roles and variations, but the game is teh same. ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/42 "2008-11-08T05:53:47Z")
Well , here I am responding to a ghost. Never mind, time to go sit by the pool and drink beer. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/43 "2008-11-08T14:11:51Z")
> [@NaturalBlondChap](#): > > Well , here I am responding to a ghost. Never mind, time to go sit by the pool and drink beer. I was wondering about that. I was trying to find the post and/or the poster and was having no luck. [whisper] NBC sees dead people. [/whisper] ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/44 "2008-11-08T17:15:57Z")
> [@NaturalBlondChap](#): > > Thanks cookies, between my incompetence at searching and the search delay it has taken me nearly 20 minutes to find these. > > Eva > here is the original mafia game thread - it explains a fair bit about the game > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=407197&highlight=werewolf](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=407197&highlight=werewolf) > > and here is the summary thread of significant moments which may explain some of the running jokes. - a bit out of date > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=464384&highlight=mafia](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=464384&highlight=mafia) > > Later games tend to get more complex and add more roles and variations, but the game is teh same. Never waste time on search again! Go to the wiki which has direct links to all the games that we have played! [http://wiki.flyingcowofdoom.com/mafiaWiki/Main\_Page](http://wiki.flyingcowofdoom.com/mafiaWiki/Main_Page) If you haven’t signed up and created a profile for yourself yet, please do so. ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2008, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/45 "2008-11-09T02:54:24Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Never waste time on search again! Go to the wiki which has direct links to all the games that we have played! > > [http://wiki.flyingcowofdoom.com/mafiaWiki/Main\_Page](http://wiki.flyingcowofdoom.com/mafiaWiki/Main_Page) > > If you haven’t signed up and created a profile for yourself yet, please do so. cool I added a profile, no idea how to get it onto the players page though ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2008, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/46 "2008-11-09T06:40:16Z")
> [@NaturalBlondChap](#): > > cool > I added a profile, no idea how to get it onto the players page though It should pop up there automatically. Mine did. If it doesn’t you can edit a link to your profile into the main page. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/47 "2008-11-10T19:59:13Z")
So, I’m guessing that JSexton’s bluffing. He pulled a trick like this in three-handed once. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/48 "2008-11-10T20:01:34Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > So, I’m guessing that JSexton’s bluffing. He pulled a trick like this in three-handed once. With this group, if he is, it’s going to get him lynched. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2008, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/49 "2008-11-10T20:03:24Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > With this group, if he is, it’s going to get him lynched. And fast. I wonder if he knows he is playing with fire. I am not convinced that he is bluffing, but it’s the theory that makes the most sense to me so far. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/50 "2008-11-11T04:16:00Z")
Do we know these people, or do we know these people? ---
**Author:** ![Precambrianmollusc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/precambrianmollusc/32/63_2.png) [@Precambrianmollusc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Precambrianmollusc)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/51 "2008-11-11T05:13:40Z")
I am going to go with JSexton is bluffing, and hoping the ‘surely no scum would be foolish enough to pull this high risk caper’ line of defense. He was fairly aggressively pushing people on day one, could be seen as role fishing, and now this could be seen as a role fishing of ok11. Hal seams to be taking a lot of opportunistic pot shots, at this point me thinks scum Same for Rapier - but he seams to have been pretty quite today. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/52 "2008-11-11T07:00:33Z")
> [@Sdmb mafia](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/784): > > Voting for someone because you can’t see pro-town motivations behind it is a reasonable way to vote. I don’t expect scum to come dancing out to show themselves, our masons are out in the open, and we’ve lost our Cop. It’s the best hope I have to find scum: finding players whose motives are suspicious. BTW, the above Boozy, is oh so very wrong. This sort of logic is terrible. I don’t know how many times I have to say it, but it is universally true that EVERY player will do something anti town during the game. Only some will do things that are actively pro scum. Pro-scum != Anti-town. They aren’t the same. You can’t look for lack of pro town motivation, or look for something as being anti-town. You have to look for how something will actively further the scum cause. Scum will ALWAYS do pro scum things or they will lose the game. Being able to effectively tell the difference between anti town and pro scum IS the game. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Klutz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captain_klutz/32/4993_2.png) [@Captain\_Klutz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Klutz)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/53 "2008-11-11T08:32:30Z")
I’m having trouble with JSexton’s link [http://s6.zetaboards.com/EmpireLost/topic/470978/10/](http://s6.zetaboards.com/EmpireLost/topic/470978/10/) When I follow the link I get a blank page. Is anyone else having a similar problem? ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/54 "2008-11-11T13:03:41Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > BTW, the above Boozy, is oh so very wrong. This sort of logic is terrible. I don’t know how many times I have to say it, but it is universally true that EVERY player will do something anti town during the game. Only some will do things that are actively pro scum. Pro-scum != Anti-town. They aren’t the same. You can’t look for lack of pro town motivation, or look for something as being anti-town. You have to look for how something will actively further the scum cause. Scum will ALWAYS do pro scum things or they will lose the game. Being able to effectively tell the difference between anti town and pro scum IS the game. And that’s what JSexton is getting at: > [@Sdmb mafia](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sdmb-mafia/470198/781): > > But that’s not what I was getting at at all, actually just the inverse. There is no point in doing this as scum. None. It draws heat and attention, something scum avoid. And what’s the upside? I _might_ learn one player’s ability? There’s better ways to fish for abilities than something like that. I’m certainly not getting any town cred out of it. And I run the risk of simply getting lynched, either from angry players or from the sudden deadline. That’s the gist of what people aren’t realizing. Now its been mentioned many times that the whole “scum would never do that” thing is a weak argument. And it is as far as determing if someone is pro-town. (Now I will concede sachertorte’s point that in this group is still seems to hold fairly frequently that scum doesn’t do the things that “scum would never do”. But the argument is only good until scum decides to finally do them just to shake things up. And you never know when that will happen, so it’s not good to use it for determining towniness.) However, “scum would never do this” is not a weak argument when it comes to determining if someone is pro-scum. JSexton’s actions are not pro-scum. This doesn’t mean he’s necessarily _not_ scum, but it means that his actions are a lousy reason to vote for him in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/55 "2008-11-11T13:35:49Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Do we know these people, or do we know these people? Heh. I’m surprised they aren’t lynching him solely for accidently going after a mason 😉 ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/56 "2008-11-11T13:36:40Z")
Here’s the thing. I’d vote for him, for two reasons. The first, which I know everyone basically disagrees with at this point, is because you simply cannot create an environment in which manipulation is acceptable. Scum will do _anything_. It is ridiculous to say that there is “no Scum motivation” to do something; if there is anything I’ve learned playing this game so far, it’s that any action can be Scummy. How does anyone playing _know_ whether his actions are or are not pro-Scum? There is no way to know this. Weird, interlocking powers can cause the Scum to take actions that don’t seem obviously pro-Scum when they happen. Here’s what I know: he’s trying to manipulate the game, via lying by interference. From my perspective, anyone who does that needs to die. Scum will have no choice but to try to manipulate the game by using false information, false inferences, and false reasoning. The minute you create an environment where doing that is acceptable, you create an environment where the Scum can comfortably camoflauge their own manipulations. I firmly believe that this is why Towns are always perceived to be doing poorly early in games, and then miraculously seem to start finding Scum toward mid- or endgame, such that the games always go down to the wire. The price of hypervigilance, of zero tolerance toward attempts to manipulate the game or its players, is going to be a few early mislynches of Townies who decide to play outside the Town. But it tends to pay off later, because Scum can’t keep their records unblemished forever. On another note, this, from **JSexton** , is a meme that is beginning to drive me crazy: > [@JSexton](#): > > It draws heat and attention, something scum avoid. Like **Pleonast** did in You-Solve-It? Or like **Roosh** did in Last Bastion and Blade Runner? Like **Gadarene** in Hispaniola? “Scum” as a class don’t do _anything_. An individual Scum may do a thing, but a generalization like the one above is wrong and dangerous and completely unlike **JSexton**. But more than all of these things, I’d vote for him right now because of the following statement: > [@JSexton](#): > > Not random. Re-reading during night, I had a hunch. It’s unfortunate that I blundered by mixing up Oredigger and ok11, but I’m still pleased with the result. ok11 is now on my “strongly town” list. So **JSexton’s** gambit was saying to **ok11** , “I know what you did last Night.” **ok11** is puzzled, and in response, **JSexton** says, “you’re now on my strongly Town list.” Presumably, the inference here is that because **ok11** seemed so genuinely puzzled by the accusation, **ok11** really didn’t do anything last Night. The problem for me is **JSexton’s** next step: jumping from that to " **ok11** is “strongly Town.” What reason is there to expect that a player with no Night action, or a player who does not give a Night action, is necessarily Town? A vanilla scum who is not chosen to carry out a kill would be just as bewildered by **JSexton’** accusation as a pro-Town player would be - “I actually _didn’t_ do anything; what the hell is he on about?” They’d react in the same way. But **JSexton** has jumped straight to “ **ok11** is probably Town,” which is suggestive of extra information indicating that **ok11** is, in fact, Town. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/57 "2008-11-11T16:26:09Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Here’s the thing. > > I’d vote for him, for two reasons. The first, which I know everyone basically disagrees with at this point, is because you simply cannot create an environment in which manipulation is acceptable. Scum will do _anything_. It is ridiculous to say that there is “no Scum motivation” to do something; if there is anything I’ve learned playing this game so far, it’s that any action can be Scummy. How does anyone playing _know_ whether his actions are or are not pro-Scum? There is no way to know this. Weird, interlocking powers can cause the Scum to take actions that don’t seem obviously pro-Scum when they happen. > > Here’s what I know: he’s trying to manipulate the game, via lying by interference. From my perspective, anyone who does that needs to die. Scum will have no choice but to try to manipulate the game by using false information, false inferences, and false reasoning. The minute you create an environment where doing that is acceptable, you create an environment where the Scum can comfortably camoflauge their own manipulations. > > I firmly believe that this is why Towns are always perceived to be doing poorly early in games, and then miraculously seem to start finding Scum toward mid- or endgame, such that the games always go down to the wire. The price of hypervigilance, of zero tolerance toward attempts to manipulate the game or its players, is going to be a few early mislynches of Townies who decide to play outside the Town. But it tends to pay off later, because Scum can’t keep their records unblemished forever. > > On another note, this, from **JSexton** , is a meme that is beginning to drive me crazy: > > Like **Pleonast** did in You-Solve-It? Or like **Roosh** did in Last Bastion and Blade Runner? Like **Gadarene** in Hispaniola? “Scum” as a class don’t do _anything_. An individual Scum may do a thing, but a generalization like the one above is wrong and dangerous and completely unlike **JSexton**. > > But more than all of these things, I’d vote for him right now because of the following statement: > > So **JSexton’s** gambit was saying to **ok11** , “I know what you did last Night.” **ok11** is puzzled, and in response, **JSexton** says, “you’re now on my strongly Town list.” Presumably, the inference here is that because **ok11** seemed so genuinely puzzled by the accusation, **ok11** really didn’t do anything last Night. > > The problem for me is **JSexton’s** next step: jumping from that to " **ok11** is “strongly Town.” What reason is there to expect that a player with no Night action, or a player who does not give a Night action, is necessarily Town? A vanilla scum who is not chosen to carry out a kill would be just as bewildered by **JSexton’** accusation as a pro-Town player would be - “I actually _didn’t_ do anything; what the hell is he on about?” They’d react in the same way. > > But **JSexton** has jumped straight to “ **ok11** is probably Town,” which is suggestive of extra information indicating that **ok11** is, in fact, Town. See, now that is an argument that would get me to vote for JSexton. It’s just not the argument that is being made. Also, it is an argument that is based on more than simply his gambit, which I think is important. Town should never be using a single action as a reason for a vote after Day 1. I have been going on about a perponderance of evidence since the Pirates game, but town still lynches player after player for a single slip. Not good. I am of two minds about the manipulation aspect. I completely see your point about town having to behave themselves so that the scum stand out in sharp relief, on the other hand if town isn’t agressive in their scum hunting I am not sure that the scum will slip up. See YSI, Cecilvania, and Doperville for examples of games where town lost simply by not trying hard enough. There has to be a balance, but frankly I don’t play town often enough to have a clear idea of what that balance should be. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/58 "2008-11-11T16:33:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Town should never be using a single action as a reason for a vote after Day 1. Unless, of course, that single action definitively proves them to be scum, like what happened to me in Terminator. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/59 "2008-11-11T16:35:11Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > Unless, of course, that single action definitively proves them to be scum, like what happened to me in Terminator. Well, ok. I will give you that. But how often does that happen. I still think you could have bluffed your way out of that situation. Out of curiostity, what what is like to have been taken over to the scum side mid game like that? One of the reasons we picked you was because you had played such a good game for the town. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457/60 "2008-11-11T16:41:38Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Here’s the thing. > > I’d vote for him, for two reasons. The first, which I know everyone basically disagrees with at this point, is because you simply cannot create an environment in which manipulation is acceptable. Scum will do _anything_. It is ridiculous to say that there is “no Scum motivation” to do something; if there is anything I’ve learned playing this game so far, it’s that any action can be Scummy. How does anyone playing _know_ whether his actions are or are not pro-Scum? There is no way to know this. Weird, interlocking powers can cause the Scum to take actions that don’t seem obviously pro-Scum when they happen. > > Here’s what I know: he’s trying to manipulate the game, via lying by interference. From my perspective, anyone who does that needs to die. Scum will have no choice but to try to manipulate the game by using false information, false inferences, and false reasoning. The minute you create an environment where doing that is acceptable, you create an environment where the Scum can comfortably camoflauge their own manipulations. > > I firmly believe that this is why Towns are always perceived to be doing poorly early in games, and then miraculously seem to start finding Scum toward mid- or endgame, such that the games always go down to the wire. The price of hypervigilance, of zero tolerance toward attempts to manipulate the game or its players, is going to be a few early mislynches of Townies who decide to play outside the Town. But it tends to pay off later, because Scum can’t keep their records unblemished forever. But at the same time, by baiting people, you get to see everyone’s reactions to it. You get people to comment on the record, both the targets and the observors. The more you force scum to go on record, the more you can catch them in contradictions and weaseling later. Also, the baiter himself is on record for the gambit, which will be part of that player’s overall noteable pattern. I can’t say too much, being spoiled, but the way this went down by all involved (the baiter, the baitee, and the other commenters) _is_ interesting. Assuming he’s Town, I’m not sure I agree with how he went about this, especially since the risk had no direct payoff, and lying does create noise. But he did troll some reactions, and should those involved in the discussion be confirmed in some way, the interactions do provide some data points. If I were a town vig, he would be on my list of possible targets, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidden-thread-for-hawkeyes-mafia-game/470457.md?page=4)