# Forbidding multiple citizenship: how? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111 "2012-02-27T02:39:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/1 "2012-02-27T02:39:25Z")
The government in its infinite xenophobia is currently considering forbidding multiple citizenship. What I can’t seem to find out is: how? They always ask me when I apply for a passport, and I have always truthfully answered that I am also British. I’m starting to think I should lie on the form (maybe a bit late now). How would they know if I am a citizen elsewhere? Call up all countries in the world? Look it up in the big book of where every person on earth comes from? How about if they order me to give up my British citizenship, and I say “yup, done deal”, they wouldn’t know that, right? I have tried finding out on Dutch fora, but nobody seems to have answers. I’m hoping someone can tell me how on earth this could work. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/2 "2012-02-27T02:53:30Z")
When you say “the government” do you mean the government of the U.K., or of the Netherlands, or some other government? And do you have a link to a news item, or something like that, explaining the proposal? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/3 "2012-02-27T02:55:19Z")
Which government, OP? I suppose all any government could really achieve would be to _not recognize_ multiple citizenship and if you really stretch it, revoke or not concede naturalization to anyone found to be exercising rights of multiple citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/4 "2012-02-27T03:04:40Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > I suppose all any government could really achieve would be to _not recognize_ multiple citizenship and if you really stretch it, revoke or not concede naturalization to anyone found to be exercising rights of multiple citizenship. Thats about the long and short of it, in their eyes you are only their citizen no matter what anyone else says. It used to be a sort of agreement I guess between nations that they would honor requests for naturalization purposes, but then some started ignoring it and eventually the USA stopped pushing the issue. Hell there are TONS of elderly people in immigration with me in Trinidad with Trini accents, turns out they are there to reclaim citizenship they gave up years before to naturalize in the USA. They have even set up prochecures for reclaimation and everything. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/5 "2012-02-27T03:10:15Z")
Waah, so sorry! Government of the Netherlands! I originally wrote that, but lost it in editing :S ETA will try to find English language article explaining ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/6 "2012-02-27T03:36:10Z")
[The Economist](http://www.economist.com/node/21542394) discusses it here. Can’t really find anything decent about the recent proposal by Minister Piet-Hein Donner. Thanks for the answers! Do you know of any occasions where if a government does know of cases of multiple citizenship, they somehow force a person to relinquish one or the other? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/7 "2012-02-27T03:40:28Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > Thanks for the answers! Do you know of any occasions where if a government does know of cases of multiple citizenship, they somehow force a person to relinquish one or the other? They usually do it during naturalization, they require you to produce a form from any other nations you hold citizenship in saying ok this guy is no longer a citizen. But if those countries know what is going on and want to let you keep it they can in a wink wink fashion. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/8 "2012-02-27T03:42:37Z")
> [@grude](#): > > They usually do it during naturalization, they require you to produce a form from any other nations you hold citizenship in saying ok this guy is no longer a citizen. > But if those countries know what is going on and want to let you keep it they can in a wink wink fashion. Thanks **grude**! Fingers crossed for the UK doing the ol’ wink wink for me if it ever comes to that 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/9 "2012-02-27T05:40:27Z")
> [@grude](#): > > They usually do it during naturalization, they require you to produce a form from any other nations you hold citizenship in saying ok this guy is no longer a citizen. 😕 And what if they won’t give the ex-citizen such a form? I’m sure a lot of countries would be perfectly happy to let them twist in the wind. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/10 "2012-02-27T05:40:50Z")
> [@grude](#): > > They usually do it during naturalization, they require you to produce a form from any other nations you hold citizenship in saying ok this guy is no longer a citizen. Do you have a cite for this from any country’s naturalization process? I’m not insisting that you’re wrong, but I find it hard to believe that any sane country would require this. There are three big issues that make me suspicious: 1. As you describe it a person would be stateless between the required renunciation of citizenship in the old country and the naturalization ceremony in the new country. If what you’re saying is true it would be very common for people immigrating from one country to another to be citizens of no country for a period of time. I believe that in fact it is very rare for someone to become stateless by renouncing citizenship, but you are indirectly claiming its a common occurrence. 2. The new country is in effect demanding the person perform a relatively rare and complex bureaucratic procedure with the old country, which may be a disorganized third world mess. It wouldn’t surprise me if such a policy would in effect deny naturalization to people from many countries, simply because there is no practical way to produce such a form from that country’s crumbling infrastructure. 3. How would the new country know what the list of “any other nations you hold citizenship in” looks like? They’d basically have to take your word for it, unless they planned to poll every single country to ask if you are a citizen. I’d expect in most cases they’d know of at least one citizenship (assuming at some point you entered the new country on that passport), but that doesn’t mean you don’t have others. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/11 "2012-02-27T05:45:06Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > Do you have a cite for this from any country’s naturalization process? I’m not insisting that you’re wrong, but I find it hard to believe that any sane country would require this. There are three big issues that make me suspicious: > > 1. As you describe it a person would be stateless between the required renunciation of citizenship in the old country and the naturalization ceremony in the new country. If what you’re saying is true it would be very common for people immigrating from one country to another to be citizens of no country for a period of time. I believe that in fact it is very rare for someone to become stateless by renouncing citizenship, but you are indirectly claiming its a common occurrence. > > 2. The new country is in effect demanding the person perform a relatively rare and complex bureaucratic procedure with the old country, which may be a disorganized third world mess. It wouldn’t surprise me if such a policy would in effect deny naturalization to people from many countries, simply because there is no practical way to produce such a form from that country’s crumbling infrastructure. > > 3. How would the new country know what the list of “any other nations you hold citizenship in” looks like? They’d basically have to take your word for it, unless they planned to poll every single country to ask if you are a citizen. I’d expect in most cases they’d know of at least one citizenship (assuming at some point you entered the new country on that passport), but that doesn’t mean you don’t have others. [http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html#noway](http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html#noway) > [@](#): > > It indeed used to be the case in the US that you couldn’t hold dual citizenship (except in certain cases if you had dual citizenship from birth or childhood, in which case some Supreme Court rulings – Perkins v. Elg (1939), Mandoli v. Acheson (1952), and Kawakita v. U.S. (1952) – permitted you to keep both). However, most of the laws forbidding dual citizenship were struck down by the US Supreme Court in two cases: a 1967 decision, Afroyim v. Rusk, as well as a second ruling in 1980, Vance v. Terrazas. > > Rules against dual citizenship still apply to some extent – at least in theory – to people who wish to become US citizens via naturalization. The Supreme Court chose to leave in place the requirement that new citizens must renounce their old citizenship during US naturalization. However, in practice, the State Department is no longer doing anything in the vast majority of situations where a new citizen’s “old country” refuses to recognize the US renunciation and continues to consider the person’s original citizenship to be in effect. > > The official US State Department policy on dual citizenship today is that the United States does not favor it as a matter of policy because of various problems they feel it may cause, but the existence of dual citizenship is recognized (i.e., accepted) as a fact of life. That is, if you ask them if you ought to become a dual citizen, they will recommend against doing it; but if you tell them you are a dual citizen, they’ll almost always say it’s OK. This is going to vary by country of course but for the USA yes they used to require it. And you are correct that the country you naturalize in has no way of knowing for sure, which is what eventually lead to the USA to soften up on it to the point they don’t recognize it but won’t pursue it. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/12 "2012-02-27T06:00:28Z")
> [@grude](#): > > [http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html#noway](http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html#noway) > > This is going to vary by country of course but for the USA yes they used to require it. Did they? I’m having trouble finding the part in your cite where the USA would “require you to produce a form from any other nations you hold citizenship in saying ok this guy is no longer a citizen”. I believe what the second paragraph of your quotation is referring to is the wording of the naturalization oath. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/13 "2012-02-27T06:06:46Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > Did they? I’m having trouble finding the part in your cite where the USA would “require you to produce a form from any other nations you hold citizenship in saying ok this guy is no longer a citizen”. I believe what the second paragraph of your quotation is referring to is the wording of the naturalization oath. How else would you do it except to require proof(a form or certificate) from the nation/s you hold citizenship in? I have heard from people that went through the process that is indeed how it worked, poorer nations at the time had so many requests from citizens naturalizing in the USA it was a routine thing not a big ordeal. ---
**Author:** ![Driver8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5a626/32.png) [@Driver8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Driver8)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/14 "2012-02-27T06:17:25Z")
> [@grude](#): > > How else would you do it except to require proof(a form or certificate) from the nation/s you hold citizenship in? I find it hard to believe people in large numbers would renounce a citizenship as a prerequisite to gaining citizenship elsewhere. They would be without citizenship for a period of time as a result. And what if your citizenship application was denied? You would have no country permanently. I’d find it easier to believe that they once required a form that stated they’d lose their old citizenship upon gaining the new one, since some countries do actually have that policy. But not all do, so once again that would be hard to do without introducing the stateless issue at least for some people. > [@](#): > > Rules against dual citizenship still apply to some extent – at least in theory – to people who wish to become US citizens via naturalization. The Supreme Court chose to leave in place the requirement that new citizens must renounce their old citizenship during US naturalization. However, in practice, the State Department is no longer doing anything in the vast majority of situations where a new citizen’s “old country” refuses to recognize the US renunciation and continues to consider the person’s original citizenship to be in effect. The quote above is _not_ referring to a requirement that a form is provided by the old country, nor it is indirectly implying it. If it is it is factually incorrect since no such requirement is “left in place”. I believe your cite to be factually correct, but only because it is referring to the oath wording. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/15 "2012-02-27T06:21:26Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > I find it hard to believe people in large numbers would renounce a citizenship as a prerequisite to gaining citizenship elsewhere. They would be without citizenship for a period of time as a result. And what if your citizenship application was denied? You would have no country permanently. > . This absolutely did used to be how it worked in the USA and they apparently did enforce it, that is not the case now which what the quoted text refers to. > **[Renunciation of citizenship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renunciation_of_citizenship)** > > Renunciation of citizenship is the voluntary loss of citizenship. It is the opposite of naturalization, whereby a person voluntarily obtains citizenship. It is distinct from denaturalization, where citizenship is revoked by the state. > The common law doctrine of perpetual allegiance denied an individual the right to renounce obligations to his sovereign. The bonds of subjecthood were conceived in principle to be both singular and immutable. These practices held on in varying ways until the late 1... > [@](#): > > Each country sets its own policies for formal renunciation of citizenship. There is a common concern that individuals about to relinquish their citizenship do not become a stateless person and many countries require evidence of another citizenship or an official promise to grant citizenship before they release that person from citizenship. Some countries may not allow or do not recognize renunciation of citizenship or establish administrative procedures that are essentially impossible to complete. > > Mexico requires renunciation of all other citizenships as a condition of naturalization.[9] Israel, on the other hand, does not require renunciation of other citizenships as a precondition to running for public office.[10] > > Renunciation of citizenship is most straightforward in those countries which recognize and strictly enforce a single citizenship. Thus, voluntary naturalization in another country is considered as “giving up” of one’s previous citizenship or implicit renunciation. For practical reasons, such an automatic renunciation cannot officially take place until the authorities of the original country are informed about the naturalization. In Japan, a formal report is required from the renouncing person to be submitted at an embassy. Germany actively investigates whether its citizens living abroad have naturalized there when they apply for a passport, for instance in Canada German passport applicants have to submit a search of citizenship record. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/16 "2012-02-27T07:35:53Z")
Unless a country wants to spend an inordinate amount of time spying on its citizens, I imagine it would work like this: they tell you you must give up your other citizenship(s), you say ok, they take your word for it unless they catch you doing something that demonstrates you’re still actively availing of your other citizenship(s), like applying for or travelling on another country’s passport. Sort of like the way they ensure that people they’ve recognised as refugees aren’t continuing to avail of their country of origin’s protection. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/17 "2012-02-27T08:33:52Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > The government in its infinite xenophobia is currently considering forbidding multiple citizenship. What I can’t seem to find out is: how? They can’t, in practice, because who is a citizen is up to the states, not the people. A country could unilaterally declare you a citizen and there’s nothing you could do about it. If you ever visited such a country, you could be prevented from leaving, forced to pay income tax on your worldwide income, and/or conscripted into their military. You may think this sounds far-fetched, but apparently it does happen on occasion: the US State Department’s travel advisories for China and North Korea contain warnings to this effect. Needless to say such a country would also refuse to provide you with any sort of letter certifying that you are not a citizen. ---
**Author:** ![quant18](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/ecc23a/32.png) [@quant18](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quant18)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/18 "2012-02-27T18:18:48Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > find it hard to believe people in large numbers would renounce a citizenship as a prerequisite to gaining citizenship elsewhere. They would be without citizenship for a period of time as a result. It happens quite often. In many places it used to be you just promised to renounce your other citizenship and they didn’t require any proof, but that worked very badly. So now how it’s usually done (e.g. in Hong Kong, many Caribbean countries, I believe in Denmark, etc.): [ol] [li]First you send in your form to apply for your new citizenship, and in the mean time you keep your old citizenship[/li][li]If your application for the new citizenship is denied, you still have your old citizenship.[/li][li]If your application for the new citizenship is accepted, then they give you an “approval in principle” letter.[/li][li]You take that letter to your old country’s consulate, tell them you want to renounce your citizenship.[/li][li]Once you have your renunciation certificate from your old country, you go to your new country’s immigration department and you get your new citizenship immediately.[/li][/ol] For step #4, many countries’ renunciation laws say that if you renounce to acquire a new citizenship, but you have not acquired any new citizenship within 6 months, then you automatically re-acquire the renounced citizenship. I think this is due to the 1954 Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness. The US is not a signatory to that convention, so they do allow you to renounce and become stateless and don’t give a damn what happens after that. Theoretically I suppose it’s possible you could complete step #4 and then you’d get denied at step #5. E.g. if you tried to assassinate your new country’s president in the mean time. Don’t know if it’s actually ever occurred. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/19 "2012-02-27T18:49:48Z")
How is a country going to know where you have citizenship? Well, typically the first question asked in any passport application is, “Where were you born?” And you need to show some type of official birth document. That’s probably the BIGGEST clue. So, if you are in the Netherlands, and you apply for a passport, and you say, “I was born in London,” the clerk will ask to see your birth certificate. You produce one, and the clerk says, “Now I need to see your British passport.” When you tell the clerk you don’t have one, the clerk will get a little uptight and say, “How did you enter the country?” Of course, with the EU and the ease of criss-crossing borders, you probably don’t need to show a passport to travel freely. But I’d say that is the conversation that will trip you up. ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111/20 "2012-02-28T01:39:26Z")
> [@VOW](#): > > How is a country going to know where you have citizenship? > > Well, typically the first question asked in any passport application is, “Where were you born?” And you need to show some type of official birth document. > > That’s probably the BIGGEST clue. > > So, if you are in the Netherlands, and you apply for a passport, and you say, “I was born in London,” the clerk will ask to see your birth certificate. You produce one, and the clerk says, “Now I need to see your British passport.” > > When you tell the clerk you don’t have one, the clerk will get a little uptight and say, “How did you enter the country?” > > Of course, with the EU and the ease of criss-crossing borders, you probably don’t need to show a passport to travel freely. > > But I’d say that is the conversation that will trip you up. > ~VOW That works for certain situations, but as many people have pointed out: there are very many situations that would never work. - I was born in the Netherlands. I am British because my parents are British. When my dad went to register my birth, he was automatically asked by the Dutch government if he wanted UK citizenship for me too. He said yes, job done, the Netherlands know. But he could have said no and then got UK citizenship for me at any later date because of parents being British. That way the Netherlands would never know. - Equally, if I become Rwandese (because they so graciously offered ;)) it seems unlikely President Kagame would ring up Queen Beatrix to rat me out. The Dutch would simply never know. - Then there is the issue of states that don’t allow citizens to renounce citizenship. The Germans may be trying very hard, but they have a sizable population of Moroccans and Morocco doesn’t allow citizens to renounce their citizenship. That seems to be working out anyway. It seems to me that besides being petty, the law is pretty unenforceable. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forbidding-multiple-citizenship-how/614111.md?page=2)