# Force-feeding Myanmar? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 10, 2008, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843 "2008-05-10T20:40:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/61 "2008-05-14T20:12:38Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] How many people died during the low point of North Korea’s famine? [/QUOTE] [Maybe as many as 3 million, but no one really knows.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/62 "2008-05-15T00:13:41Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] If we were corrupt conquerers, let me tell you what we’d do. FIrst off, we’d begn extermination proceedings. You can’t go home and you can’t stay here. Either get off or get out. After all, we don’t need all those cities or things. So they’re gone. The water sources can be easily controlled and we can easily annihilate the entire population. With nuclear weapons if we pleased. Failing that, we could begin mass enslavement. We can even play one side against another to completely eradicate all sectors of the independant people we wish to control. We would have no fewer than 3 million solder in the field. Poor training doesn’t matter - the important thing would be to simply slaughter all the men who resist. The women we take possession of. All resources, including cultural artifacts of value, machinery, oil, and skilled workers becomes possessions. That’s conquest. No mercy. Total control. Total power. [/quote] :rolleyes: Oh, please. Just because you don’t act like the Nazis or the Mongols doesnt mean you aren’t a conqueror. And it’s not like we HAVEN’T killed and abused huge numbers of Iraqis. And you aren’t going to see people trying to do a war of conquest on the cheap put 3 million soldiers in the field. [QUOTE=smiling bandit] You don’t send wealth over to the place you conquer. [/QUOTE] Of course you do. Payoffs to the companies “reconstructing” Iraq ( who don’t do the job ), building bases, etc. It’s not like the **Iraqis** are benefiting from all the money we are wasting. That’s all being spent to feed our own corruption. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/63 "2008-05-15T02:43:10Z")
The sad thing is you actually believe that load of bullshit. And you actually think it has some bearing on this thread which is sadder still… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/64 "2008-05-15T03:07:36Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] Wait until they find out they can’t tax a dead person or eat mud. If they don’t get the delta area of Myammar to a functional state there will be a severe grain shortage. And there is another storm headed their way. [/QUOTE] Pshaw! Taxes are for pussies. The junta seems to get a large amount of its money from lucrative business deals with Thai and Indian businessmen, such as their satellite-communications deal with Thailand’s deposed billionaire prime minister, Thaksin Shinawatra. What they can gouge from the peasants is probably chump change. But it looks like there’s no second cyclone forming, although heavy rains are on their way. This extreme arrogance of the Burmese junta is actually historically traditional. It was this same sort of arrogance that drew Britain into all three Anglo-Burmese Wars of the 19th century. Most people have never heard of these wars, but their accounts make for some fascinating reading. They say the court of Siam when it was based in Ayutthaya was exactly the same. When the Burmese smashed the centuries-old Siamese monarchy in 1767, forcing everyone to flee and eventually set up shop again in Bangkok, it supposedly forced at least a little common sense into the upper crust of Siamese society. Although considered a disaster of earth-shaking proportions at the time, Thailand should actually be grateful to the sacking by the Burmese for this kingdom’s modern outlook. I just heard on the BBC, too, that Burma has agreed to let in a few aid workers, and yes, I am very, very surprised. It will be interesting to see how that plays out. Earlier BBC reported that the UN was sending a special envoy to try to persuade the junta to accept aid workers. I only hope the envoy is not black this time. Don’t mean to sound racist, but the junta ARE racist, very much so, and when the UN sent Ibrahim Gambari to lobby on behalf of Aung San Suu Kyi, the junta was mortally offended that they would send a black man to speak with them. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/65 "2008-05-15T03:20:42Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] The sad thing is you actually believe that load of bullshit. And you actually think it has some bearing on this thread which is sadder still… -XT [/QUOTE] It does, since America and Iraq were brought up. And if I believed in useing the patronizing-fake-sorrow “argument” like you are, I’d say that I was “sad” that you have no recourse but to try to make this thread about mocking me. Instead of actually trying to argue your position. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/66 "2008-05-15T03:39:37Z")
What’s to argue? Your arguments are all hyperbolic bullshit after all…just the usual anti-America ranting that has nothing to do with this thread. The world isn’t the comic book you make it out to be…and what is happening in Myanmar has zero to do with Iraq. BTW, doing a search on ‘Iraq’ in this thread shows that one poster has pretty much overwhelmingly brought that up… Wonder who THAT could be, ehe? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/67 "2008-05-15T04:00:14Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam] Pshaw! Taxes are for pussies. The junta seems to get a large amount of its money from lucrative business deals with Thai and Indian businessmen, such as their satellite-communications deal with Thailand’s deposed billionaire prime minister, Thaksin Shinawatra. What they can gouge from the peasants is probably chump change. [/QUOTE] In order to make a lucrative business deal there has to someone to buy a product or make a product. You can’t run a country without people or food. [QUOTE=Siam Sam] But it looks like there’s no second cyclone forming, although heavy rains are on their way. [/QUOTE] A cyclone is a freight train that backs over you when it’s done. They can still get the flooding side of a heavy rain. Maybe it will help wash the bodies out to sea. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/68 "2008-05-15T04:07:38Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] In order to make a lucrative business deal there has to someone to buy a product or make a product. You can’t run a country without people or food. [/QUOTE] Maybe not, but I think the junta are willing to give it the ol’ college try. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/69 "2008-05-15T04:14:55Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] What’s to argue? Your arguments are all hyperbolic bullshit after all…just the usual anti-America ranting that has nothing to do with this thread. The world isn’t the comic book you make it out to be…and what is happening in Myanmar has zero to do with Iraq. BTW, doing a search on ‘Iraq’ in this thread shows that one poster has pretty much overwhelmingly brought that up… Wonder who THAT could be, ehe? [/QUOTE] **Weirddave** brought it up. And as a rule, comic book villains aren’t as ridiculously incompetent and pointlessly nasty as we have been. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/70 "2008-05-15T05:21:43Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam] Maybe not, but I think the junta are willing to give it the ol’ college try. [/QUOTE] Pretty much looks that way to me. Earlier in the week I was watching a journalist interview people in Burma and they mentioned that the military was watching them from a helicopter. No mention was made that supplies were being delivered by the helicopter so it left the viewer with the idea that the military was just watching them. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/71 "2008-05-16T16:46:22Z")
Just in case people have forgotten I figured I’d post an [update](http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/05/16/myanmar.ap/index.html) : > [@](#): > > Myanmar’s junta: Almost 78,000 dead in cyclone > > YANGON, Myanmar (AP) – The official death toll from Cyclone Nargis has nearly doubled to almost 78,000 and another 56,000 people remain missing two weeks after the storm, Myanmar state television reported Friday. > [@](#): > > The Red Cross fears the cyclone toll may be as high as 128,000; the U.N. estimates more than 100,000 died. The U.N. estimates 1.5 million to 2.5 million survivors are in desperate need of food, water, shelter and medical care. Aid groups have reached only 270,000 so far. > [@](#): > > “The risk increases with each passing day,” Pitt said, referring to the vulnerability of survivors to outbreaks of disease and other problems. > [@](#): > > Lack of clean water will be “the biggest killer” in Irrawaddy in the coming days, Thomas Gurtner, the head of operations for the international Red Cross, told The Associated Press in Geneva. > [@](#): > > The U.N. health agency said Friday it was concerned about diarrhea, malaria and dengue fever spreading among the cyclone victims. > [@](#): > > The junta insists Myanmar nationals and government agencies, including the military, can handle relief operations, particularly aid distribution. > > “We still have obstacles to relief workers getting to the delta region, which doesn’t help,” Pitt said. “We are concerned about the effects on the people. It is clear, from what everyone is saying, the aid effort is far from over.” I’m starting to think that the estimate of 100,000 deaths may be on the conservative side…especially if this farce continues much longer and a serious disease breaks out. I think this attitude of not forcing the Junta to do anything and letting them take the lead is really working out well… ☹ -XT ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/72 "2008-05-17T01:32:34Z")
I hesitate to write this, because I do not want to dissuade anyone from donating to charity. But I have my reservations about donating to situations in which the donated money and materials may end up in the pockets of the elite, and I would caution people to be wise about how they donate. I applaud \*\*jjimm’s \*\* efforts, but I note in the blog linked to in his link above that already some donated aid has gone on sale in the marketplace. I’m not posting this in his linked thread, because I really fear being a wet blanket, but I’ve seen so much aid over the years commandeered by the wealthy and powerful. Even in a country as relatively developed as Thailand, in the aftermath of the tsunami, certain local officials locked up aid as soon as it arrived and doled it out to the highest bidder, keeping the proceeds for themselves. The Red Cross has reported no one can account for hundreds of thousands of dollars given by them to Thailand for tsunami relief. The situation in Burma is much worse. The junta and other officials will honestly think nothing whatsoever about commandeering aid to enrich themselves. So does that mean you should not give anything? No, and I hope I don’t come across like that. Just be aware that a blind rush to give something, anything, may not be the most efficient way. Choose your charities wisely and demand at least some degree of accountability. There are some completely hard-hearted characters in power everywhere over here, and disasters like these are often seen as a God-given opportunity for enrichment. That said, thanks, **jjimm**. I’ll trust your people to do the right thing. They and the Red Cross are probably safe, or at least as safe as you can get in such a tricky situation. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/73 "2008-05-17T03:08:12Z")
If Burma is taking it’s cues from China than maybe they will now let in aid workers since China is allowing teams in. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/74 "2008-05-17T13:58:43Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] If Burma is taking it’s cues from China than maybe they will now let in aid workers since China is allowing teams in. [/QUOTE] I’d like to think so, but no. They’re not all that close to China. Not as close as, say, North Korea is to China. I wouldn’t say they really take any cues from China. The junta is basically a band of creepy thugs. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/75 "2008-05-17T14:27:40Z")
Oh, and looky [here](http://www.mysinchew.com/node/11668?tid=37) in Malaysia’s \*Sinchew \* newspaper. The Burmese just voted 94% in favor of the new constitution despite their hardships. My my. Excerpts: "In a country ruled by the feared military since 1962, few would have dared to vote against the Constitution. International rights groups have questioned the accuracy of the results, as some local journalists said that they witnessed many irregularities in the voting, with people voting multiple times or not having the privacy of a truly secret ballot. “The National League for Democracy [Aung San Suu Kyi’s organization] and other opposition groups labelled the referendum a ‘sham’ to legalise military rule. “This referendum was full of cheating and fraud across the country,” said National League for Democracy spokesman Nyan Win. Human rights groups dismissed the vote as a mockery of democracy, saying that government officials were told to mark the ballots with ‘Yes’ ticks for those who failed to show up at polling stations.” Makes me wonder who the 6% dissenting were. Probably came out that way just to make it look good. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/76 "2008-05-17T16:59:46Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam] I’d like to think so, but no. They’re not all that close to China. Not as close as, say, North Korea is to China. I wouldn’t say they really take any cues from China. The junta is basically a band of creepy thugs. [/QUOTE] While your knowledge may well be greater than mine, I’ve actually heard the Junta is thick as theives (apt metaphor…) with China, much closer than North Korea. They’re not officially communist, it’s true, but they have very similar policy goals. The Junta wants China’s hand off, but they’re happy to be a close ally and also make Chinese immigrants a demi-upper class over the Burmese. NK, on other hand, is barely civil with China except when it has to be. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/77 "2008-05-18T01:35:24Z")
[QUOTE=smiling bandit] While your knowledge may well be greater than mine, I’ve actually heard the Junta is thick as theives (apt metaphor…) with China, much closer than North Korea. They’re not officially communist, it’s true, but they have very similar policy goals. The Junta wants China’s hand off, but they’re happy to be a close ally and also make Chinese immigrants a demi-upper class over the Burmese. NK, on other hand, is barely civil with China except when it has to be. [/QUOTE] Yes, Burma is happy to be a Chinese ally, when it suits them, but no, they’ll not take anything resembling instructions or orders from China. Or from anyone else. They’re exponentially more bizarre than North Korea’s Kim, but not remotely as entertaining. Not the least bit entertaining. Mark my words, this is going to get so much worse before it gets better. Unfortunately, the news may train its eye elsewhere after a while, like it did with the coverage of Burma during last year’s minor unrest, which is probably what the junta is hoping for. ---
**Author:** ![Barrett\_Bonden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5e9695/32.png) [@Barrett\_Bonden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barrett_Bonden)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2008, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/78 "2008-05-19T03:01:57Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam] Actually, in Burma’s case, the people really DO want the US to invade. In fact, they look at Iraq and hold out hope that Burma is next. George Bush is wildly popular among the populace. Foreigners are constantly being asked when it will happen, and why hasn’t it happened yet, and could we please hurry it up. Many of the citizens are convinced it’s just a matter of time before the US invades, a prospect they look forward to with glee. It’s very sad. [/QUOTE] I was going to post this but you beat me to it. The junta has always abused people within their national borders. The cyclone has temporarily focused attention on Burma because it combines a cinematographic natural disaster with an insanely abusive governing villain. The Burmese government knows that despite the current outcry, everyone will be distracted by something more exciting and dramatic in a week or so somewhere else. There’s no real pressure on the government to change anything. This situation is status quo for the country. The only difference is that the current harm is passive (death from disease and starvation) rather than active (troops opening fire in a hill village then using captured villagers to sweep for land mines). ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/79 "2008-05-19T04:16:31Z")
The Thai media reported over the weekend that Burma announced the relief phase to be over. Now they say all that’s left is the rebuilding. Huh! Imagine that. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843/80 "2008-05-19T04:23:28Z")
[QUOTE=Siam Sam] Yes, Burma is happy to be a Chinese ally, when it suits them, but no, they’ll not take anything resembling instructions or orders from China. Or from anyone else. They’re exponentially more bizarre than North Korea’s Kim, but not remotely as entertaining. Not the least bit entertaining. Mark my words, this is going to get so much worse before it gets better. Unfortunately, the news may train its eye elsewhere after a while, like it did with the coverage of Burma during last year’s minor unrest, which is probably what the junta is hoping for. [/QUOTE] I’ll say it again, if they don’t repair their breadbasket farmland then they will have long-term problems feeding the populace. The government may not care but if enough people get pissed off it will fall. That event can be fed by outside influences. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-feeding-myanmar/448843.md?page=5)