# Force vs. Freedom to Choose **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 5, 2000, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783 "2000-03-05T21:32:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Flinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Flinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flinx)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/21 "2000-03-11T04:29:00Z")
Esprix wrote: > [@](#): > > We can disagree without being disagreeable. I agree. (Sorry for the late response.) But can we agree without disagreeing about being agreeable? That’s the real question. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/22 "2000-03-11T15:05:00Z")
Poly said: > [@](#): > > Hey, David, was’t that slythe’s turn to post the “God hates humans unless they turn sock puppet for him” line? Dammit, we must have gotten our schedules mixed up again! Could we trouble you to keep track and e-mail us to let us each know when we have to pop into threads and post this stuff? Edlyn said: > [@](#): > > I thought you didn’t believe in Him. If you give Him ‘credit for that’… Do I really have to preface my comments with, “If you really believe in God, that means…”? C’mon. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Maxwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a183cd/32.png) [@Jack\_Maxwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Maxwell)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/23 "2000-03-11T16:33:00Z")
The LDS has publicly opposed gay marriage? I’m sure this is going to come across as rude, but do you think it’s a good idea for the LDS to say anything about the morals involved in marriage, after the whole Polygamy fiasco. I know that is not longer accepted by the church, but it is still one of the most commonly known facts people outside the LDS know about the LDS. It just seems like poor publicity. I would think a heavly proselytizing church would want better PR than that. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/24 "2000-03-11T16:51:00Z")
What is the whole “polygamy fiasco” and what does it have to do with homosexuality? It seems to me they’d be even _more_ in favor of heterosexuality – to the point of having several (female) wives! ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Maxwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a183cd/32.png) [@Jack\_Maxwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Maxwell)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/25 "2000-03-11T17:01:00Z")
David it has nothing to do with homosexuality, it has to do with the church’s credibility in regards to their beleifs on the morality of marriage. BTW to be an equal opportunity offender, since the CofE was created to allow Henry VIII to divorce his wife, they can’t say anything about gay marriage either. Of course, they probably haven’t. * * * “God is the biggest bitch of them all.” ---
**Author:** ![Flinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Flinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flinx)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/26 "2000-03-12T09:50:00Z")
Jack, put simply, the LDS church believes that polygamy is moral if and when it is sanctioned by God, and grossly immoral when it is not. Thus, they have no problem fighting same-sex marriage, which they also consider to be grossly immoral. The difference between same-sex marriage and polygamy (in the eyes of the LDS church) is, same-sex marriage is _always_ immoral, while polygamy is only immoral when not specifically sanctioned by God through revelation. ---
**Author:** ![WhiteNight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b38774/32.png) [@WhiteNight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhiteNight)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/27 "2000-03-12T13:25:00Z")
Flinx: You’d vote against SSM? As in, you’d vote to make it illegal? You’re a freaking sicko. You claim to have learned tolerance, yet you are willing to use the threat of death to enforce your will upon others? How can you possibly reconcile this? I would vote for a law against rape. But that’s because I have the moral conviction to take a gun and go enforce this law myself, if it was ever necessary. You’re saying that you’re really tolerant, because you wouldn’t try to enforce it. You’d just vote that the government should make it illegal, and thus bring the potential force of the army in (after all else fails) to kill someone who opposes this law? The force of law comes from violence, and by your advocating passing a law against something you find distasteful, you are advocating locking up or killing people who disagree with you. Wow, that sure is tolerant. Anything so as you don’t get blood on your precious innocent hands. Sociopathic freak. You’re a pretty good example of everything wrong with religion. Narrow minded bigots trying to crush anyone who disagrees with them. You’re just the kinder and gentler face of this, the good cop. You’re still quite willing to see people imprisoned or killed, just because you don’t like their sexual preference, what they do behind closed doors. And you’re too freaking hypocritical to admit this, you pretend that wanting to pass a law against these people and their practices is really tolerance. Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Flinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Flinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flinx)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/28 "2000-03-12T17:27:00Z")
WhiteNight wrote: > [@](#): > > Flinx: You’d vote against SSM? > As in, you’d vote to make it illegal? I would vote against it being legally recognized, which is different than saying I would vote to make it illegal. > [@](#): > > You’re a freaking sicko. You claim to have learned tolerance, yet you are willing to use the threat of death to enforce your will upon others? How can you possibly reconcile this? Who says I’m willing to use “the threat of death to enforce [my] will on others”? Certainly not me. I wouldn’t vote to make SSM a capital offense; I’d just vote against the government recognizing such marriages legally. No punishment for it–just no endorsing it legally. > [@](#): > > I would vote for a law against rape. But that’s because I have the moral conviction to take a gun and go enforce this law myself, if it was ever necessary. You’re saying that you’re really tolerant, because you wouldn’t try to enforce it. You’d just vote that the government should make it illegal, and thus bring the potential force of the army in (after all else fails) to kill someone who opposes this law? The ARMY??? KILL “someone who opposes this law?” You’ve got me all wrong, pal. > [@](#): > > The force of law comes from violence, and by your advocating passing a law against something you find distasteful, you are advocating locking up or killing people who disagree with you. Wow, that sure is tolerant. Anything so as you don’t get blood on your precious innocent hands. Oh yeah, like I’m “advocating locking up or killing people who disagree with” me. You couldn’t be further from the truth. > [@](#): > > Sociopathic freak. > > You’re a pretty good example of everything wrong with religion. Narrow minded bigots trying to crush anyone who disagrees with them. You’re just the kinder and gentler face of this, the good cop. You’re still quite willing to see people imprisoned or killed, just because you don’t like their sexual preference, what they do behind closed doors. And you’re too freaking hypocritical to admit this, you pretend that wanting to pass a law against these people and their practices is really tolerance. I really don’t know where all of your vehemence towards me is coming from. I’m NOT willing to see people imprisoned or killed over this issue. I don’t care what people do behind closed doors. That’s their business, not mine. > [@](#): > > Bullshit. Yes, but whose? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/29 "2000-03-12T19:21:00Z")
> [@](#): > > I would vote against it being legally recognized, which is different than saying I would vote to make it illegal. The difference between “not legally recognized” and “illegal” being… ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/30 "2000-03-12T20:53:00Z")
WhiteNight said: > [@](#): > > You’re a freaking sicko. and > [@](#): > > Sociopathic freak. [Moderator hat ON] Tone it down or take it to the Pit. This is unacceptable in GD. [Moderator hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Flinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Flinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flinx)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/31 "2000-03-12T22:54:00Z")
Otto wrote: > [@](#): > > ## quote: (Flinx) > > ## I would vote against it being legally recognized, which is different than saying I would vote to make it illegal. > > The difference between “not legally recognized” and “illegal” being… Not legally recognized: you can still do it without being in danger of loosing your freedom or life. The government simply doesn’t recognize it. Illegal: You go to jail just for doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Flinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Flinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flinx)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/32 "2000-03-12T23:01:00Z")
Er, that should be “losing,” not “loosing.” ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/33 "2000-03-12T23:09:00Z")
::: :orangecakes, loosing Flinx’s belt::::::: 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Flinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Flinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flinx)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2000, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/34 "2000-03-12T23:24:00Z")
Rose, please, not in front of the dopers! ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/35 "2000-03-13T04:25:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Not legally recognized: you can still do it without being in danger of (losing) your freedom or life. The government simply doesn’t recognize it. > > Illegal: You go to jail just for doing it. Your definition of “illegal” is more appropriate to the word “criminal.” SSM is “illegal” in the US, not just “not legally recognized.” It is “illegal” for county clerk’s offices to issue marriage licenses. It is “illegal” for those empowered to solemnize marriages to attempt to solemnize SSM. In some states, the attempt carries “criminal” penalties. Opponents of SSM, IMHO, would prefer to think of SSM as “not legally recognized” rather than “illegal” because the connotations of the former are less harsh than the latter. Also IMHO, I find it rather disrespectful of Rose to engage in the temptation she is engaged in. I was under the impression that you had commited yourself to chastity outside marriage, and loosening your belt in a flirtatious manner, even a “cyber-belt” on a message board, seems inappropriate. But that’s between you and her and your god, I suppose, although I for one would appreciate it if the two of you would refrian from flaunting your heterosexual acts in my face. ---
**Author:** ![Flinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Flinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flinx)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/36 "2000-03-13T05:22:00Z")
Otto wrote: > [@](#): > > Your definition of “illegal” is more appropriate to the word “criminal.” SSM is “illegal” in the US, not just “not legally recognized.” It is “illegal” for county clerk’s offices to issue marriage licenses. It is “illegal” for those empowered to solemnize marriages to attempt to solemnize SSM. In some states, the attempt carries “criminal” penalties. Opponents of SSM, IMHO, would prefer to think of SSM as “not legally recognized” rather than “illegal” because the connotations of the former are less harsh than the latter. Well, all I can say is, you learn something new every day. I had no idea that SSM was actually illegal; I was under the impression that it was discouraged and that it wasn’t legally recognized, but didn’t know the facts you supplied above. > [@](#): > > Also IMHO, I find it rather disrespectful of Rose to engage in the temptation she is engaged in. I was under the impression that you had commited yourself to chastity outside marriage, and loosening your belt in a flirtatious manner, even a “cyber-belt” on a message board, seems inappropriate. But that’s between you and her and your god, I suppose, although I for one would appreciate it if the two of you would refrian from flaunting your heterosexual acts in my face. Sorry. I’ll spank her the next time I see her. Bad Rose! ---
**Author:** ![WhiteNight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b38774/32.png) [@WhiteNight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhiteNight)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/37 "2000-03-13T07:35:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Flinx: The ARMY??? KILL “someone who opposes this law?” You’ve got me all wrong, pal. Where do you think the force of law comes from? Do the cops just give up if you won’t come along quietly? > [@](#): > > Bullshit. > Flinx: Yes, but whose? That of someone who says they’ve learned tolerance, yet simply wants to oppress people in a less obvious way. > [@](#): > > Moderator: Tone it down or take it to the Pit. This is unacceptable in GD. Gotcha. Flinx, if you want my opinion of you, ask in the pit. ---
**Author:** ![Flinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Flinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flinx)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/38 "2000-03-13T14:07:00Z")
WhiteNight wrote: > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## Flinx: The ARMY??? KILL “someone who opposes this law?” You’ve got me all wrong, pal. > > Where do you think the force of law comes from? Do the cops just give up if you won’t come along quietly? This is where you have me all wrong. I definitely oppose any piece of legislation that would take basic human rights like life, liberty, and property away from practitioners of SSM. I don’t think the police, the army, the FBI, the Food & Drug Administration, or the freaking Coast Guard should have anything to do with enforcing laws against SSM. Indeed, I don’t believe in enforcing such laws at all. So please take down that straw man of yours and learn the facts about what I really believe before you attack my beliefs. > [@](#): > > ## quote: > > ## Bullshit. Flinx: Yes, but whose? > > That of someone who says they’ve learned tolerance, yet simply wants to oppress people in a less obvious way. I do not want to oppress people. I’ve already told Otto that if I wasn’t a Mormon (albeit inactive), I would be siding with him on this issue. Once again, for those who haven’t heard this view expressed by me a thousand times, I believe in following the LDS prophets. It’s part of my religion. Here is a statement from them, given in an address to members several years ago: [Proclamation on the Family](http://www.lds.org/library/pro_of_the_fam/pro_of_the_fam.html) They make it pretty obvious that marriage is a divine institution meant to be between a man and a woman, and that those who would destroy this institution are subject to God’s wrath. That is the basis for my opposition to SSM, not a desire to oppress people. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/39 "2000-03-13T14:16:00Z")
Otto: Oh so sorry it bothers you that we are “flaunting” our flirting in your face! Your flirting with another man on this board wouldn’t bother Me. What gives? Bill: I’m not into spanking… ---
**Author:** ![Flinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Flinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flinx)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2000, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783/40 "2000-03-13T14:21:00Z")
Orangecakes, then however will I oppress you? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/force-vs-freedom-to-choose/17783.md?page=3)