# Forced abortions in the United States **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 17, 2007, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forced-abortions-in-the-united-states/415881 "2007-08-17T00:32:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forced-abortions-in-the-united-states/415881/21 "2007-08-17T18:47:39Z")
[QUOTE=Yllaria] This feels like a nitpick, but would it be considered an abortion if the fetus had died and was being removed against the woman’s wishes in order to save her life? I’m assuming that a court would allow that if petitioned. [/QUOTE] I think that technically that is an abortion, though I’m not sure if it’s generally necessary, since the body would normally abort the dead fetus. (I’m just going on personal experience here, since my wife had one spontaneous miscarriage and one still-born child, on separate pregnancies, so it does seem that the normal body can deal with a dead fetus). However, the scenario doesn’t bring in the usual ethical and legal problems of aborting live fetuses. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forced-abortions-in-the-united-states/415881/22 "2007-08-17T19:17:55Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] Do you have a cite for that last statement? The “pro-life” groups are always screaming about women being “forced” to have abortions, but I’ve seen more ridiculous cases (12 year old incest victims) where they are the absolute strangers trying to deny them to those who want them. [/QUOTE] Wait, which statement? The one that’s similar to yours above or ‘If it’s been done…’ ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forced-abortions-in-the-united-states/415881/23 "2007-08-17T19:25:15Z")
The one about forced abortion being done “hand-in-hand with forced sterlization.” ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forced-abortions-in-the-united-states/415881/24 "2007-08-17T19:38:00Z")
(double post) ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forced-abortions-in-the-united-states/415881/25 "2007-08-17T19:40:41Z")
‘ **If** it’s been done (outside of comatose women), **I suspect** it’s gone hand-in-hand with forced sterilization.’ If it was practiced in North America, I imagine it was practiced on the same groups subject to forced sterilization (e.g. mentally disabled women). The **Resolution of the First European Conference on Self-Determined Living for Disabled Women** claims disabled women are still subject to both sterilization and ‘forced abortion,’ so I can’t imagine it being an impossibility in the U.S. From [here](http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/enable/rights/gendersense.htm) > [@](#): > > Right to protection against eugenic health programs and practices > (CEDAW, article 16; Cairo Declaration) > > This includes forced abortion and sterilization. > Disabled women frequently lose their rights to motherhood and a family life through forced abortions and sterilizations. I realize neither specifies mental illness, and there is some question what defines ‘forced.’ ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forced-abortions-in-the-united-states/415881/26 "2007-08-17T19:47:37Z")
I remember hearing on the radio a woman who was forced to have a abortion against her will but it was done because she was a minor and her parents were the ones who had the right to decide. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forced-abortions-in-the-united-states/415881/27 "2007-08-17T19:51:09Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] The one about forced abortion being done “hand-in-hand with forced sterlization.” [/QUOTE] The Government of the Commonwealth of Virginia, as late as 1965 routinely aborted fetuses of institutionalized mentally retarded women, and in most cases also sterilized them. I knew one of these women, although not until years later. She described the incident this way: “They killed my baby, cause I was retarded. Then they took out my womb, so I couldn’t have babies anymore.” While it was very difficult to get a look at any of the records at the time, it is quite clear that she did have an abortion, and a sterilization, and also quite clear that she resented it very strongly. Virginia is hardly a pro abortion rights state. This, along with many other abuses is why the debate raises such very strong feelings in the town of Lynchburg, VA. where it happened. I doubt that it could happen in state institutions today. But, the facts of law are that “the will” of those adjudicated incompetent is entirely under the authority of their legal guardians, and in many cases, that guardian is an agent selected by the state. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forced-abortions-in-the-united-states/415881/28 "2007-08-17T20:09:54Z")
[QUOTE=Chotii] Except that the pro-life camp would never hold an unwilling example up - in effect, further victimizing her after she has already been forced into something she did not want - and put her at potential further risk from whoever forced her in the first place, who might become quite dangerous if exposed and similarly paraded. [/QUOTE] I sincerely doubt this entire sentence. They drive big vans through urban areas with graphic pictures of aborted fetuses on the side. It is difficult to imagine they _wouldn’t_ parade such an obvious _cause célèbre_. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2007, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forced-abortions-in-the-united-states/415881/29 "2007-08-17T23:59:09Z")
[QUOTE=Giles] I think that . . . the body would normally abort the dead fetus. [/QUOTE] Normally it does. I was remembering something called a misabortion, which, upon googling, turns out to be not quite what I thought it was. I had heard it was a case of a dead fetus not being expelled and endangering the woman’s health as it decayed and stressed her systems. Online it looks like the fetus can be reabsorbed, leaving a living placenta and amneotic sac behind. Or there can be an unformed mass instead of the fetus. So a misabortion isn’t always the immediate danger that I thought it had to be and sometimes the doctor and patient can choose to wait for the body to decide to expell. It sounds emotionally complicated. You’re right, I don’t think there would be the legal problems associated with a living fetus. Although the woman would still feel pregnant, and if she didn’t believe the doctor’s evidence that there was no baby, might oppose discontinuing the pregnancy. But that sounds like an unlikely response to an unlikely occurrance and there’s no viable fetus any more and I’m going to stop talking about it. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forced-abortions-in-the-united-states/415881/30 "2007-08-18T01:42:02Z")
I’ve read claims of women who say they were forced to have abortions, but it was always in the context of “my boyfriend said he’d leave me if I didn’t.” This, to me, is not coercion but manipulation. The reading was, I think, an NYTimes article about a pro-life movement that spoke primarily to women in prison to help them “grieve” their “murdered child” and “repent” their “sins”. Obviously, I profoundly disagreed with their view on the matter. What irked me the most was the women gathered up by this movement professed that abortion should always be illegal, to save other women like them from regretting their choice. I’m not a fan of adults giving up their rights and responsibilities because they once made a choice they regret. While I don’t doubt that there were some actual forced abortions when mentally ill or developmentally delayed women routinely had their right to consent violated, I very much doubt such a thing would happen today. For one thing, this is about the only place where pro-lifers and pro-choicers would agree on the preferable outcome. The pro-lifers want to preserve the life of the fetus. The pro-choicers want the woman’s (or girl’s) right to choose respected. If the woman chooses to bear her child, then both sides should back her up to the hilt. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forced-abortions-in-the-united-states/415881/31 "2007-08-18T05:22:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Except that the pro-life camp would never hold an unwilling example up - in effect, further victimizing her after she has already been forced into something she did not want - and put her at potential further risk from whoever forced her in the first place, who might become quite dangerous if exposed and similarly paraded. We must know different pro-life organizations. The ones I’m familiar with would not hesitate to decide that their cause far outweighs any quibbling concerns over a person’s privacy. > [@](#): > > Well, there’s “forced” and “forced”. There’s forced-by-the-law, and there’s “bullied by significant people, such as the father of the baby, or one’s own parents”. The latter surely happens, and nobody hears about it. When I was 17 and (mistakenly) thought I was pregnant, my own father gave me the ultimatum: abort, or get the hell out. I think most of us would agree that what you’re discussing is coercion not force and it’s a seperate issue. If my father had told me to get a job or get the hell out, he may have forced me to work but it wouldn’t have been the same as him selling me into slavery. > [@](#): > > I remember hearing on the radio a woman who was forced to have a abortion against her will but it was done because she was a minor and her parents were the ones who had the right to decide. There are radio shows where people discuss their abduction by aliens, so we’re going to need a little more documatation on this one before it’s credible. ---
**Author:** ![Will\_Repair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a698b9/32.png) [@Will\_Repair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Will_Repair)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forced-abortions-in-the-united-states/415881/32 "2007-08-18T06:44:48Z")
Here are a couple of articles (by Pro-Life sites) about a forced abortion in the US. [http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/mar/04030910.html](http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/mar/04030910.html) [http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/may/04050602.html](http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/may/04050602.html) [http://pop.org/main.cfm?id=235&r1=1.00&r2=3.00&r3=94.00&r4=3.00&level=4&eid=629](http://pop.org/main.cfm?id=235&r1=1.00&r2=3.00&r3=94.00&r4=3.00&level=4&eid=629) ---
**Author:** ![bbs2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e495f1/32.png) [@bbs2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bbs2k)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forced-abortions-in-the-united-states/415881/33 "2007-08-18T08:14:16Z")
[QUOTE=Will Repair] Here are a couple of articles (by Pro-Life sites) about a forced abortion in the US. [/QUOTE] I dug up the actual court papers [here](http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/ops/200314071.pdf). I’ll paste the relevant information here: > [@](#): > > II. Facts > A. > In early March 1997, Roe visited the clinic and signed a form indicating, > among other things, that she understood the various risks involved in obtaining an > abortion and that she consented to receiving medically necessary treatment in the > event of complications. On March 29, 1997, she again signed the same form > when she returned to the clinic in order to undergo what would be her fourth > abortion. > > Before the procedure began, Roe became nervous because she thought > women were being called into the surgery room rather quickly and because of her > unexplained fears of both pain and punishment. Once in the surgery room, Dr. > Egherman gave Roe nitrous oxide gas to help relax her. A patient advocate, > whose job was to attend to Roe’s emotional concerns, was in the room. > > Dr. Egherman began the surgery by inserting a speculum, sterilizing Roe’s > cervix, applying a topical gel to reduce any pain associated with the lidocaine > injections, and giving the lidocaine injections. He dilated Roe through the > insertion of increasingly larger dilators and then began to use a canula which is > connected to a vacuum aspirator and used to remove the fetus. Dr. Egherman > recognized that the canula was struggling to remove tissue. He used his bear > forceps in an attempt to remove the tissue, and at that point realized that > something was wrong. > > Dr. Egherman began to diagnosis the problem, determine whether there > might be internal bleeding, assess whether hospitalization was necessary, and > stabilize Roe for transfer to the hospital. An ambulance was called on his order, > and he spoke to the emergency physician and OB/GYN on duty at the hospital. > Dr. Egherman did not perform any more abortions that day because he was too > shaken to do so. He went to the hospital to check on Roe, who had suffered a > perforated uterus and a lacerated colon. Roe underwent surgery at the hospital to > repair the damage and to remove the fetus. > > Throughout the entire procedure at the clinic, beginning with the insertion > of the speculum, Roe complained of unusual discomfort and/or pain. > At some point, Roe ordered Dr. Egherman to stop and said that she wanted > the clinic to call her mother and that she would drive herself to the hospital. The > record is not clear as to when Roe ordered Dr. Egherman to stop. Roe’s deposition > suggests that Dr. Egherman began to perform the abortion and after he realized > there was a problem continued some procedure on her. (Roe Dep. at 120-23; 140- > 41.) However, Roe’s argument on appeal is that there was a time after she ordered > > him to stop and before he started treatment (diagnosis and stabilization) when he > continued to attempt to perform the abortion. > > Additionally, at some point Dr. Egherman ordered others in the room to > hold Roe down. The record is unclear as to whether this was done while he was > continuing to attempt to perform the abortion or when he was diagnosing the > problem and stabilizing Roe for the ride to the hospital. > > For reasons we will explain below, these factual disputes are not material. Judge for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forced-abortions-in-the-united-states/415881/34 "2007-08-18T12:40:18Z")
[QUOTE=Will Repair] Here are a couple of articles (by Pro-Life sites) about a forced abortion in the US. [http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/mar/04030910.html](http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/mar/04030910.html) [http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/may/04050602.html](http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/may/04050602.html) [http://pop.org/main.cfm?id=235&r1=1.00&r2=3.00&r3=94.00&r4=3.00&level=4&eid=629](http://pop.org/main.cfm?id=235&r1=1.00&r2=3.00&r3=94.00&r4=3.00&level=4&eid=629) [/QUOTE] Yes, anecdotal evidence. Because one woman claims she was forced to have an abortion against her will, that means it is a routine procedure done on millions of women every day in this country. If the baby’s father tells you to have an abortion or he’ll walk, have the child if you so choose and take the father to court. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forced-abortions-in-the-united-states/415881/35 "2007-08-18T15:46:13Z")
**Giles** and **Ylaria** , the term you’re looking for is missed abortion or missed miscarriage. It’s relatively common in early pregnancy, often an empty sac or a baby without a heartbeat is seen on the 12 week scan, although the woman has no bleeding, pain or other symptoms of miscarriage. Usually the woman undergoes a surgical evacuation of the uterus (either a D&C or suction curettage) or a medical evacuation with misoprostol (essentially “labour” is induced with drugs). There is a risk of infection if the problem is not treated, and as the foetus is not viable the procedure is not an abortion, either medically or legally speaking. Nowadays someone is presumed to have a right to consent, and this can only be breached if it is demonstrated they haven’t got the capacity to refuse or consent to treatment. If one cannnot understand information, or retain information, or weigh information in order to reach a decision, one cannot give informed consent, nor can one refuse consent. In the UK at least no adult person can give or deny consent for another person. Mentally incapacitated adult persons must have their capacity assessed for each separate medical procedure, and the courts decide based on psychiatric and medical evaluations if the person is able to consent or not. For example, a person with Down’s syndrome may have capacity to consent or refuse a simple cannula insertion as they may understand the procedure and implications of refusal, however they may not have the capacity to refuse a blood transfusion, as they do not fully understand the risks involved. One of my patients is severely mentally disabled, and requires a surgery to remove a tumour. Although we have explained what we wish to do and why, and she has agreed, we are waiting for her psychiatrist to evaluate her in order to see if she fully has capacity to consent before we proceed. If her psychiatrist feels she does not, the court will decide what is in her best interest. ---
**Author:** ![netsplit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecc23a/32.png) [@netsplit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/netsplit)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2007, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forced-abortions-in-the-united-states/415881/36 "2007-08-18T16:17:17Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Alabortiona and Terminessee, I guess. [/QUOTE] Well done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/forced-abortions-in-the-united-states/415881.md?page=1)