Forced abortions in the United States

Factual Questions
21

[QUOTE=Yllaria]
This feels like a nitpick, but would it be considered an abortion if the fetus had died and was being removed against the woman’s wishes in order to save her life? I’m assuming that a court would allow that if petitioned.
[/QUOTE]

I think that technically that is an abortion, though I’m not sure if it’s generally necessary, since the body would normally abort the dead fetus. (I’m just going on personal experience here, since my wife had one spontaneous miscarriage and one still-born child, on separate pregnancies, so it does seem that the normal body can deal with a dead fetus). However, the scenario doesn’t bring in the usual ethical and legal problems of aborting live fetuses.

22

[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas]
Do you have a cite for that last statement?

The “pro-life” groups are always screaming about women being “forced” to have abortions, but I’ve seen more ridiculous cases (12 year old incest victims) where they are the absolute strangers trying to deny them to those who want them.
[/QUOTE]

Wait, which statement? The one that’s similar to yours above or ‘If it’s been done…’

23

The one about forced abortion being done “hand-in-hand with forced sterlization.”

24

(double post)

25

‘If it’s been done (outside of comatose women), I suspect it’s gone hand-in-hand with forced sterilization.’

If it was practiced in North America, I imagine it was practiced on the same groups subject to forced sterilization (e.g. mentally disabled women).

The Resolution of the First European Conference on Self-Determined Living for Disabled Women claims disabled women are still subject to both sterilization and ‘forced abortion,’ so I can’t imagine it being an impossibility in the U.S.

From here

I realize neither specifies mental illness, and there is some question what defines ‘forced.’

26

I remember hearing on the radio a woman who was forced to have a abortion against her will but it was done because she was a minor and her parents were the ones who had the right to decide.

27

[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas]
The one about forced abortion being done “hand-in-hand with forced sterlization.”
[/QUOTE]

The Government of the Commonwealth of Virginia, as late as 1965 routinely aborted fetuses of institutionalized mentally retarded women, and in most cases also sterilized them. I knew one of these women, although not until years later. She described the incident this way: “They killed my baby, cause I was retarded. Then they took out my womb, so I couldn’t have babies anymore.” While it was very difficult to get a look at any of the records at the time, it is quite clear that she did have an abortion, and a sterilization, and also quite clear that she resented it very strongly.

Virginia is hardly a pro abortion rights state. This, along with many other abuses is why the debate raises such very strong feelings in the town of Lynchburg, VA. where it happened.

I doubt that it could happen in state institutions today. But, the facts of law are that “the will” of those adjudicated incompetent is entirely under the authority of their legal guardians, and in many cases, that guardian is an agent selected by the state.

Tris

28

[QUOTE=Chotii]
Except that the pro-life camp would never hold an unwilling example up - in effect, further victimizing her after she has already been forced into something she did not want - and put her at potential further risk from whoever forced her in the first place, who might become quite dangerous if exposed and similarly paraded.
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I sincerely doubt this entire sentence. They drive big vans through urban areas with graphic pictures of aborted fetuses on the side. It is difficult to imagine they wouldn’t parade such an obvious cause célèbre.

29

[QUOTE=Giles]
I think that . . . the body would normally abort the dead fetus.
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Normally it does. I was remembering something called a misabortion, which, upon googling, turns out to be not quite what I thought it was. I had heard it was a case of a dead fetus not being expelled and endangering the woman’s health as it decayed and stressed her systems.

Online it looks like the fetus can be reabsorbed, leaving a living placenta and amneotic sac behind. Or there can be an unformed mass instead of the fetus. So a misabortion isn’t always the immediate danger that I thought it had to be and sometimes the doctor and patient can choose to wait for the body to decide to expell. It sounds emotionally complicated.

You’re right, I don’t think there would be the legal problems associated with a living fetus. Although the woman would still feel pregnant, and if she didn’t believe the doctor’s evidence that there was no baby, might oppose discontinuing the pregnancy.

But that sounds like an unlikely response to an unlikely occurrance and there’s no viable fetus any more and I’m going to stop talking about it.

30

I’ve read claims of women who say they were forced to have abortions, but it was always in the context of “my boyfriend said he’d leave me if I didn’t.” This, to me, is not coercion but manipulation. The reading was, I think, an NYTimes article about a pro-life movement that spoke primarily to women in prison to help them “grieve” their “murdered child” and “repent” their “sins”.

Obviously, I profoundly disagreed with their view on the matter. What irked me the most was the women gathered up by this movement professed that abortion should always be illegal, to save other women like them from regretting their choice. I’m not a fan of adults giving up their rights and responsibilities because they once made a choice they regret.

While I don’t doubt that there were some actual forced abortions when mentally ill or developmentally delayed women routinely had their right to consent violated, I very much doubt such a thing would happen today. For one thing, this is about the only place where pro-lifers and pro-choicers would agree on the preferable outcome. The pro-lifers want to preserve the life of the fetus. The pro-choicers want the woman’s (or girl’s) right to choose respected. If the woman chooses to bear her child, then both sides should back her up to the hilt.

31

We must know different pro-life organizations. The ones I’m familiar with would not hesitate to decide that their cause far outweighs any quibbling concerns over a person’s privacy.

I think most of us would agree that what you’re discussing is coercion not force and it’s a seperate issue. If my father had told me to get a job or get the hell out, he may have forced me to work but it wouldn’t have been the same as him selling me into slavery.

There are radio shows where people discuss their abduction by aliens, so we’re going to need a little more documatation on this one before it’s credible.

32

Here are a couple of articles (by Pro-Life sites) about a forced abortion in the US.

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/mar/04030910.html

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/may/04050602.html

http://pop.org/main.cfm?id=235&r1=1.00&r2=3.00&r3=94.00&r4=3.00&level=4&eid=629

33

[QUOTE=Will Repair]
Here are a couple of articles (by Pro-Life sites) about a forced abortion in the US.
[/QUOTE]
I dug up the actual court papers here. I’ll paste the relevant information here:

Judge for yourself.

34

[QUOTE=Will Repair]
Here are a couple of articles (by Pro-Life sites) about a forced abortion in the US.

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/mar/04030910.html

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/may/04050602.html

http://pop.org/main.cfm?id=235&r1=1.00&r2=3.00&r3=94.00&r4=3.00&level=4&eid=629
[/QUOTE]

Yes, anecdotal evidence. Because one woman claims she was forced to have an abortion against her will, that means it is a routine procedure done on millions of women every day in this country.

If the baby’s father tells you to have an abortion or he’ll walk, have the child if you so choose and take the father to court.

35

Giles and Ylaria, the term you’re looking for is missed abortion or missed miscarriage. It’s relatively common in early pregnancy, often an empty sac or a baby without a heartbeat is seen on the 12 week scan, although the woman has no bleeding, pain or other symptoms of miscarriage.

Usually the woman undergoes a surgical evacuation of the uterus (either a D&C or suction curettage) or a medical evacuation with misoprostol (essentially “labour” is induced with drugs).

There is a risk of infection if the problem is not treated, and as the foetus is not viable the procedure is not an abortion, either medically or legally speaking.

Nowadays someone is presumed to have a right to consent, and this can only be breached if it is demonstrated they haven’t got the capacity to refuse or consent to treatment. If one cannnot understand information, or retain information, or weigh information in order to reach a decision, one cannot give informed consent, nor can one refuse consent.

In the UK at least no adult person can give or deny consent for another person. Mentally incapacitated adult persons must have their capacity assessed for each separate medical procedure, and the courts decide based on psychiatric and medical evaluations if the person is able to consent or not.

For example, a person with Down’s syndrome may have capacity to consent or refuse a simple cannula insertion as they may understand the procedure and implications of refusal, however they may not have the capacity to refuse a blood transfusion, as they do not fully understand the risks involved.

One of my patients is severely mentally disabled, and requires a surgery to remove a tumour. Although we have explained what we wish to do and why, and she has agreed, we are waiting for her psychiatrist to evaluate her in order to see if she fully has capacity to consent before we proceed. If her psychiatrist feels she does not, the court will decide what is in her best interest.

36

[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
Alabortiona and Terminessee, I guess.
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Well done.