Forced sterilization

[UCBearcats]

@Deeg

My sister is a foster mother and some of the children who have come through her house often make me think that forced sterilization wouldn’t be a bad program and most of the kids have multiple siblings. I’m in agreement that we can’t have the government decide that some people must be sterilized but what about the idea of making sterilization a punishment for a crime against one’s children? The punishment can only be given after a trial by jury, just like any other major crime.

We take children away from their parents, usually without any kind of due process. We also put people in prison for life (after a trial). Is it that much different to sterilize someone instead (after a trial)?

This is part of what I am talking about. Child abuse, child neglect, rape, incest, child porn would all be part of the issue.

[UCBearcats]

@Broomstick

Sterilizing criminals was a major feature of the early 20th Century eugenics movement and is tarred by the same brush. No, we can’t do that because it was done in the past in a really screwed up, abusive manner.

It may not have been done correctly 100 years ago, but it doesn’t mean it is a bad idea overall.

[UCBearcats]

@Magiver

We already have a system to discard unwanted babies. heck there’s even money in it. We can harvest their stem cells and then flush em down the toilet. The only social concern is that we use a 1.6 gallon toilet.

What would be helpful is to stop the systematic program of breeding poor people. go back to the days where we took children away from parents who couldn’t afford them instead of paying them to teach generational poverty.

This is also one of my points. The unwed mom who is 23 with 5 kids from 5 guys who are no longer around has no need to have a chance for 6. The 5 kids that are already here do not need another sibling. The tax payers do not need another mouth to feed for 18 years or potentially longer.

[Magiver]

@UCBearcats

This is also one of my points. The unwed mom who is 23 with 5 kids from 5 guys who are no longer around has no need to have a chance for 6. The 5 kids that are already here do not need another sibling. The tax payers do not need another mouth to feed for 18 years or potentially longer.

It’s not just a taxpayer mouth to feed, it’s paying the money to a “parent” who is a serious threat to the child’s development.

[coffeecat]

Everyone should read beowulff’s link, in post 45. (Here it is again, for your convenience.) It’s most enlightening, and horrifying.

[Ruken]

@Der_Trihs

No need to go to Hitler; Americans have been perfectly willing to define people as inferior and deserving of sterilization for such “defects” as being poor or a rape victim.

The Nazis modeled their eugenics program on ours, not the other way around.

Indeed. Eugenics was a tenant of the early Progressive movement, along with a minimum wage to prevent minorities and defectives from taking jobs from proper Americans, as they defined them.

[Broomstick]

@UCBearcats

It may not have been done correctly 100 years ago, but it doesn’t mean it is a bad idea overall.

I don’t trust a society that elects a spoiled brat as president and has Nazis and the KKK openly marching in the streets to be a society I’d trust to do it “correctly”.

[UCBearcats]

@coffeecat

Everyone should read beowulff’s link, in post 45. (Here it is again, for your convenience.) It’s most enlightening, and horrifying.

Interesting, especially the “three generations”.

[nearwildheaven]

@UCBearcats

This is also one of my points. The unwed mom who is 23 with 5 kids from 5 guys who are no longer around has no need to have a chance for 6. The 5 kids that are already here do not need another sibling. The tax payers do not need another mouth to feed for 18 years or potentially longer.

Or better yet, the 23-year-old man who has 16 kids with 12 different women, and has never seen any of them, and has 3 women currently pregnant with his kids.

Chances are, the women they’re breeding with aren’t any better. Because it was done on people who really didn’t deserve it, that’s why we can’t do it on people like this.

[UCBearcats]

@nearwildheaven

Or better yet, the 23-year-old man who has 16 kids with 12 different women, and has never seen any of them, and has 3 women currently pregnant with his kids.

Chances are, the women they’re breeding with aren’t any better. Because it was done on people who really didn’t deserve it, that’s why we can’t do it on people like this.

I agree that it needs to happen to the guys too. I don’t want to be accused of being sexist.

[FavreCo]

You don’t force them. You pay them. Tax free $3000 should entice most losers. The money saved would easily cover the payout.

[Fenris]

@UCBearcats

This is stemming from the forced busing thread. A lot of the issues involved with poor performing schools and students is lack of parental involvement and support. At some point people should be sterilized for their own good, that of their other children, and society as a whole.

We force people to be licensed and regulated in virtually all aspects of our lives besides having kids. When someone has too many kids, can’t afford them, is a crack whore meth head, or multiple time felon their ability to reproduce should be reduced or eliminated to better things for any existing offspring and/or not bring additional kids into the world.

Cool. You first.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Reddy_Mercury

“Whereas the hereditarily healthy families have for the most part adopted a policy of having only one or two children, countless numbers of inferiors and those suffering from hereditary conditions are reproducing unrestrainedly while their sick and asocial offspring burden the community.”

Guess who said that.

Hitler was also a vegetarian, professed Christianity, didn’t drink alcohol and liked moustaches.

Should we all be carnivorous drunk atheists without moustaches?

We condition public assistance on legal residence. Illegal aliens can’t get Medicaid or Food Stamps. Why can’t we condition public assistance for families with 2 or more children on temporary chemical sterilization? We can make some exceptions for people who have medical issues with chemical sterilization and other stuff that might not be obvious to me right now.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Reddy_Mercury

Hitler. Forced sterilization of “undesirables” was wrong then, and wrong now.

Why was it wrong then and why is it wrong now? Because you can make some sort of connection to Hitler?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@John_Mace

Do you know who said: “Three generations of imbeciles are enough.”

Holmes. People forget how popular the notion of eugenics was before Hitler got into the business.

[VinylTurnip]

@kayaker

Did you know that if not for Hitler, CarrotTop would be the most hated man in all of history?

They have a lot in common, but not everything. You’d need a time machine to shoot Hitler.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@monstro

But I don’t have a problem with society providing free family planning services for low-income individuals. I also don’t have a problem with society providing incentives. You have two kids and you’re still fertile and you’re at the bottom of the Section 8 voucher list? We will move up the list if you agree to go on Norplant or something like it.

Inducement is often seen as coercion. How long before people say that the inducement is in fact coercion?

Ideally, we should be treating the children born from low-income parents as an asset rather than a burden. Fertility rates are falling. We have two choices if we want to maintain an age structure that’s conducive for a healthy society. We can let in more immigrants, many of whom will be poor and uneducated. Or we can encourage Americans to have as many babies they want and provide a social safety net so that every baby that is born is properly cared for. For the vast majority of cases, the problem isn’t that poor people aren’t good parents. It’s that it is expensive to be a good parent; even middle-class parents realize this. Imagine a society where childcare is an entitlement and each zip code has a stock of affordable and low-income housing. Imagine a society where healthcare costs aren’t the deciding factor for whether a family can support another child.

So if being a good parent is expensive, then in what way is it a good idea to have poor people have lots of kids? Why isn’t immigration a better answer to the tendency of American families to have fewer and fewer kids? Why not brain drain the world and make room for them by limiting the reproduction of those who have trouble feeding their own kids. You really think its just childcare that makes parenting expensive?

Do you know how much a child costs? Everything you make plus $1.

The fact of the matter is that many people don’t have what it takes to be a good parent. They are short tempered or they treat 2 year olds like they’re 12 or they have trouble coping with living their own lives without having to worry about someone else. In an ideal world I would deny them the right to procreate in the first place but I figure everyone should have the opportunity to procreate twice (the replacement rate) before any restrictions kick in.

I think if we make society more “pro-children”, then we can’t just provide more goods and services. We also have to step up protections and enforcement. Child abuse is truly one of the biggest scourges of society. It creates criminals and dysfunctional individuals and families. It even results in poor health outcomes. Instead of pouring more money into policing and prisons, we need to invest more in child protection agencies and affialiated NGOs. We need programs that help to mitigate the effects of dysfunctional families without severing kids from these families. Rich people send their kids to boarding schools out of convenience; why not set up voluntary boarding schools for kids in families with suboptimal living conditions so that parents can get their acts together without screwing up their kids in the process? Institutions get a bad wrap, but there’s a reason why the military is so transformative for so many people. If you’ve spent your whole life learning maladaptive coping mechanisms, you will need a lot of help breaking free from them.

We used to have orphanages where you could deposit your kids if things were not going well with your family and people didn’t like them. I on the other hand would consider well-run orphanages with adequate oversight to be an improvement to many foster homes and frankly to many birth homes as well.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Der_Trihs

No need to go to Hitler; Americans have been perfectly willing to define people as inferior and deserving of sterilization for such “defects” as being poor or a rape victim.

The Nazis modeled their eugenics program on ours, not the other way around.

:rolleyes:

[somepumpkin]

@beowulff

The US had forced sterilizations.
You might want to listen to this to find out how grossly discriminatory the whole process was.

I was going to post this link to our state’s eugenic’s history.

learnnc.org

I knew little about this until http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/nchist-worldwar/6164"]watching a documentary on it from earlier this year. The heartbreak was difficult to endure as innocent people discovered they had been misled by their government.

While the argument may be able to stand in a narrowly focused discussion where the extreme ideals are vetted against each other, human nature makes this (eugenics) program very difficult to quantify.

[Fenris]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Holmes. People forget how popular the notion of eugenics was before Hitler got into the business.

Given that you’re the guy who didn’t know pogroms existed before 1897-ish, I’d suggest that your knowledge of history is, at best, suspect.

Even though eugenics existed before Hitler, Hitler showed where it’ll invariably end up.