# Foreign\* examples of failed gun control **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 23, 2006, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951 "2006-08-23T22:32:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/1 "2006-08-23T22:32:22Z")
One argument against banning guns is that the criminal underclass will always be able to obtain guns, even if they’re illegal. Can someone point out a good example? A country where it was illegal (or practically so) for private citizens to possess guns, yet this made next to no impact on the possession of guns by career criminals? \*I say “foreign” (=outside USA) because whatever local or state laws might be in effect in various jurisdictions, it’s obviously not that hard to obtain guns elsewhere in the nation. I’m thinking of a national ban, where all guns have to either be smuggled into the country or stolen from the police and military. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/2 "2006-08-23T22:39:03Z")
I’ve seen the UK ban on handguns following the Dunblane massacre cited by pro-gun people, since the possession of handguns increased following the ban. However, the actual numbers were so negligible per head of population as to be statistically insignificant. That said, there’s a steady rise in criminal gun possession here. But it’s still negligible. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/3 "2006-08-23T23:00:31Z")
I’ve heard that Australia’s ban on handguns has had no significant effect on the country’s crime rate. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/4 "2006-08-23T23:17:31Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve heard that Australia’s ban on handguns has had no significant effect on the country’s crime rate. Meaning what exactly? That is was low before guns were banned and remained low? It was high before and remained high? That Australia’s crime statistics are similar to countries that haven’t banned guns? ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2006, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/5 "2006-08-23T23:49:16Z")
Cecil took on a related topic for Great Britain. [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/041105.html](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/041105.html) The UK has much higher crime overall than the U.S. except for rape and murder. Some say this is because criminals basically have a license to pillage because most of the police don’t even carry guns. There is nothing definitive however. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/6 "2006-08-24T00:12:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Some say this is because criminals basically have a license to pillage because most of the police don’t even carry guns. There is nothing definitive however. As the article pointed out, the rise in the crime rate didn’t coincide with any change in long established gun control laws. So it’s most likely some other factor is the real explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/7 "2006-08-24T00:23:35Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Meaning what exactly? That is was low before guns were banned and remained low? It was high before and remained high? That Australia’s crime statistics are similar to countries that haven’t banned guns? If these numbers [here](http://chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=8073) are accurate, then Australia’s crime rate has been increasing at the same time that the United States’ crime rate has been decreasing. Of particular note is the huge upswing in robberies since guns were banned. This [pro-gun control website](http://www.guncontrol.org.au/) has an article crowing about a reduction in gun deaths since the ban, but they don’t say anything about actual _crime_ rates. The numbers they cite include accidents and suicides. (I was surprised to see that suicide is by far the most common cause of death-by-gunshot in Australia.) A drop in accidental and suicidal shootings is significant, but it doesn’t mean that the overall suicide rate has dropped. [This other page](http://www.gunsandcrime.org/aussiegc.html) asserts that > [@](#): > > "What the gun controllers don’t want people to know is that it has been proven (and confirmed) that reducing the prevalence of firearms does **not** reduce (total) suicide rates even though it does in fact reduce **firearm** suicide rates. People wanting to commit suicide simple use another tool/method when a firearm is not available. [Doctors typically don’t believe this because they know that a firearm is more certain to kill than some other methods that are frequently used, and they’ve told each other that some large portion of suicides are impulsive, spur of the moment events. What they fail to account for is that there is no shortage of equally deadly methods, and a person who fails in a suicide attempt is very likely just to try again and again (often without others even knowing) until he or she succeeds.] ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/8 "2006-08-24T00:25:54Z")
Oh yeah, it turns out that what I heard was wrong. Gun control has apparently made Australia’s crime rate worse. Only the number of accidental shootings has definitely improved, and that shouldn’t be a surprise to anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/9 "2006-08-24T00:43:46Z")
I’m a little suspicious about a site that includes phrases like “when the physically weaker are barred from possessing the best tool for self-defense, they are rendered helpless” and “women pay the price when politicians use tragedy as an excuse to eliminate armed threat to their power”. It indicates they might have some bias on the issue. I also heard it said that head-to-head comparisons of crime rate statistics are not always as objective as they may appear. Different countries use different definitons of what constitutes a crime. Two countries that appear to have radically different levels of “assault” are really just acting two different things. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/10 "2006-08-24T00:58:07Z")
Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/11 "2006-08-24T01:30:58Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > I’m a little suspicious about a site that includes phrases like “when the physically weaker are barred from possessing the best tool for self-defense, they are rendered helpless” and “women pay the price when politicians use tragedy as an excuse to eliminate armed threat to their power”. It indicates they might have some bias on the issue. Oh there’s definitely bias, but the pro-gun-control sites aren’t any better, with articles titled “Port Arthur - Remember the Victims, Remember the Lessons” and “The Gun Lobby Plays Its Latest Trick.” This seems to be one of those topics that everybody has strong feelings about. I can’t find any numbers that don’t come from someone with an adgenda. Still, the pro-gun sites all seem to be talking about how the crime rate is increasing in Australia, while the anti-gun sites all seem to be talking about how the overall gun death rate has dropped. This suggests to me that the basic facts aren’t really in dispute; the question is how you interpret them and what’s important to you. > [@](#): > > I also heard it said that head-to-head comparisons of crime rate statistics are not always as objective as they may appear. Different countries use different definitons of what constitutes a crime. Two countries that appear to have radically different levels of “assault” are really just acting two different things. Point taken, but I doubt that Australia’s definitions of “assault” and “robbery” are too awfully different from their American counterparts. Plus, the trends should still be valid – however Australia defines “assault,” they rose 39% between 1995 and 2001. And robberies increased 70% (!). ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/12 "2006-08-24T01:34:33Z")
May I suggest that anyone considering posting to this thread **reread the OP**? ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/13 "2006-08-24T01:48:49Z")
Mexico. Canada. Yeah, there’s VERY limited lawful possession in both of these countries, but for practical purposes, general personal ownership is very limited. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/14 "2006-08-24T03:03:29Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > Mexico. Canada. Yeah, there’s VERY limited lawful possession in both of these countries, but for practical purposes, general personal ownership is very limited. Ok, this is what I was talking about. So if it’s next to impossible to legally own a gun in Mexico, are Mexico’s criminals still well armed? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/15 "2006-08-24T04:37:20Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > Mexico. Canada. Yeah, there’s VERY limited lawful possession in both of these countries, but for practical purposes, general personal ownership is very limited. I had not previously considered Canadian citizens to be armed to the teeth. Am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/16 "2006-08-24T07:46:28Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > If these numbers [here](http://chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=8073) are accurate, then Australia’s crime rate has been increasing at the same time that the United States’ crime rate has been decreasing. Of particular note is the huge upswing in robberies since guns were banned. This chronwatch site is not accurate. I have a sneaking suspicion they are pushing a political view. This [Australian Institute of Criminology](http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/cfi/cfi066.html) site shows firearm homicide deaths decreasing since 1996. The head of the Australian Bureau of Statistics regularly [provides updates](http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Crime-plunges-to-lowest-level-in-years/2005/04/18/1113676704326.html) that the violent crime rate is continually decreasing. _“The murder rate last year - 1.0 per 100,000 people - was down from a rate of 1.4 in 2003 and is the lowest rate since murders were first recorded separately from manslaughter and attempted murder.” SMH 2005_ [Proportion of firearms in commission of murder and robbery](http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/7d12b0f6763c78caca257061001cc588/da3ded213bae8114ca257178001b6949!OpenDocument) is decreasing. Also [Nationmaster](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita) shows that firearm murders are 10 x lower in Australia (ranked #27) than the USA (ranked #8). ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/17 "2006-08-24T07:52:04Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Cecil took on a related topic for Great Britain. > > [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/041105.html](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/041105.html) > > The UK has much higher crime overall than the U.S. except for rape and murder. Some say this is because criminals basically have a license to pillage because most of the police don’t even carry guns. There is nothing definitive however. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, that column is one of the shoddiest he’s ever written… > [@Cecil](#): > > UK householders who injure a home invader are often hauled up on charges Not true - although it seems like it because the few cases where this does happen get splashed all over the tabloids. > [@](#): > > Rising crime in Britain surely has a lot to do with the lousy economy. From 1974 to 1999 the UK unemployment rate averaged more than 10 percent. It’s lower now, but a lot of antisocial behavior became entrenched during that time. Soccer hooliganism is one example; I’d say crime in general is another. Errrrrmmmm…over that period, football hooliganism rose _and fell again_. ---
**Author:** ![bluezooky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@bluezooky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bluezooky)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/18 "2006-08-24T09:01:41Z")
I would say you have two category of gun homicide in Australia. The hardcore criminals who carry handguns to commit premeditated crimes clearly haven’t handed their weapons in or had much trouble obtaining more illegal weapons. The other category is the spur of the moment suicide, murder or murder suicide using a hunting weapon that just happened to be siting around I supposer this might have fallen, common sense would indicate it might fall over time. No doubt Australian crime has a lot more to do with the ups and down of the heroin trade than the availability of guns. ---
**Author:** ![lynne-42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lynne-42/32/3138_2.png) [@lynne-42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynne-42)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/19 "2006-08-24T11:37:40Z")
The Chronwatch figures are distorted and therefore very suspicous. I just checked rape, because they seemed ludicrous to me, a woman living in Australia. And they are. The Chronwatch site quotes Rape: AUS – 86 US – 32 per 100,00 people. The source quoted agrees with the 86 per 100, 000 : Australian Crime Facts and Figures 2002, Australian Institute of Criminology, November, 2002, page 7. [http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2002/facts\_and\_figures\_2002.pdf](http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2002/facts_and_figures_2002.pdf) but that is for sexual assualt, which in Australia can include all sorts of things. Inappropriate touching, for example. Not in the same ball park as rape. Rape is extremely rare. So why are the figures so deliberately distorted? Obviously the truth doesn’t work for the argument! And we Australian women are not suffering for lack of protection from firearms. We live in safety because men don’t have them! I know NO Australian women who doesn’t want even stricter gun laws. Sorry - you won’t be able to make any genuine Australian figures support your goal. Lynne ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951/20 "2006-08-24T12:20:25Z")
[Snopes](http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp) checked some of the Australian figures, and concludes that rates went down. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-examples-of-failed-gun-control/369951.md?page=2)