# Foreign languages: the WTF moment that made you throw in the towel **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 8, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312 "2016-05-08T17:58:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/101 "2016-05-12T15:02:40Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Great, that means that there are only 5,765,760 permutations to choose from, instead of over 20 trillion ways to screw them up. :rolleyes: > > (The first number is the number of different permutations that the six different forms can be distributed among the 16 slots, and the second number is the the number of different permutations that a hypothetical 16 different forms could be distributed among the 16 slots.) Actually, I think I screwed up the math here. Repetition of articles are allowed (e.g. _die_ is used for the feminine article and the plural article in the nominative and accusative cases), so it should be calculated as the number of permutations with repetition allowed. With 6 different articles in the 16 different slots, it comes out to 6[sup]16[/sup] = 2,821,109,907,456 different permutations. I think. A hypothetical 16 different articles could be distributed among the 16 slots in 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 different permutations! ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/102 "2016-05-12T15:09:16Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > I am convinced that the key to enjoying Paris as an American is to not be able to speak French at all like me. I have been there many times and just told any of them that wanted to speak to me straight up that I am an American that can’t speak French (in English). They immediately switched into English because almost every younger person and those that work in the hospitality industries can speak fairly good English as far as I can tell. Problem solved. Of course, they could have been insulting me behind my back in French with their friends and coworkers for all I know but that is an added bonus because I would never know. I generally agree with this. Though I did make an effort to learn how to greet people and ask if they spoke English (in French). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/103 "2016-05-12T15:33:11Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Actually, I think I screwed up the math here. Repetition of articles are allowed (e.g. _die_ is used for the feminine article and the plural article in the nominative and accusative cases), so it should be calculated as the number of permutations with repetition allowed. > > With 6 different articles in the 16 different slots, it comes out to 6[sup]16[/sup] = 2,821,109,907,456 different permutations. I think. > > A hypothetical 16 different articles could be distributed among the 16 slots in 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 different permutations! Or you could look at it as, in any given circumstance, you have a 16% chance of choosing the right article. The math would be slightly altered if you look at the frequency. In fact, you could just say “derdiedas” every time. Make it your thing. They’ll think you’re cool. Chinese and Russian learners of English point out that “the” is utterly unnecessary, anyway, and many of my students who come from languages without articles have a devil of a time learning the rules. I imagine they feel about “the” the way we feel about gendered nouns. (And while I’m at it, Welsh _llygad_ and Breton _lagad_ work exactly the same as _ojo_ in meaning “eye” but sometimes “spring.” Thanks, **Nava** , for the nuance: I’ve always wondered whether there was a difference between llygad and _ffynnon_ (fountain / spring, from Latin), but I suspect it’s the same as Spanish.) ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/104 "2016-05-12T17:36:49Z")
> [@robby](#): > > …With 6 different articles in the 16 different slots, it comes out to 6[sup]16[/sup] = 2,821,109,907,456 different permutations. I think. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Or you could look at it as, in any given circumstance, you have a 16% chance of choosing the right article. The math would be slightly altered if you look at the frequency. In fact, you could just say “derdiedas” every time. Make it your thing. They’ll think you’re cool. Exactly right; that’s another way of looking at it. If I guess randomly, I have one chance in six of getting the article correct, which is a 16.7% chance each time. If I guess randomly 16 times in a row, I have one chance in 6[sup]16[/sup] of getting them all right (1 chance in 2.8 trillion). As I noted in an earlier post, it’s not quite as bad as that, because I’m not guessing completely randomly. Nevertheless, there’s only a snowball’s chance in hell that I’m going to get all or even most of the articles and endings right over the course of a conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/105 "2016-05-12T18:04:58Z")
> [@robby](#): > > If I guess randomly 16 times in a row, I have one chance in 6[sup]16[/sup] of getting them all right (1 chance in 2.8 trillion). On a more serious note, and not directed at **robby** , this is one of the biggest obstacles to language learning: the goal of perfection. As a learner, the target should be way less. I can’t do the math, but if you just guessed at random, what would be the chances of getting 50% of them right? And, as you say, it’s not completely random. I mess up gender all the time. It never impedes communication, but it does make me sound like a non-native speaker. Which I am, so that’s fine. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/106 "2016-05-12T18:32:08Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > It would even be a specific type of spring, one which comes out of a hole (as opposed to seeping out), that being another meaning of _ojo_. The butthole is _el ojo del culo_, which means that any talk of third eyes is going to produce guffaws. Is _ojos_ also used as slang for another body part, which is gender specific? I mean, we speak of blue eyes, but … ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/107 "2016-05-13T20:41:37Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Is _ojos_ also used as slang for another body part, which is gender specific? I mean, we speak of blue eyes, but … I thought those were, colloquially, sometimes called _huevos_ (eggs). ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/108 "2016-05-14T08:02:49Z")
Yeah, those are not holes and the gender-specific holes aren’t called eyes… (that I know, of course, I can’t promise we won’t get someone saying “in my local dialect they are”). ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/109 "2016-05-14T08:54:32Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > OP: that only holds true in France. Many other Francophone countries use more logical numbers. I found French pretty easy, even irregular verbs. The main things I didn’t get were all the propositions, and the more obscure reasons why imperfect was used over passé composé or vice versa. > > Japanese months are easy: January = One-month, February = Two-month etc. The month symbol is the same as “moon.” Days of the week are slightly harder, but combine an Eastern classical element way day (or sun), so no harder than any European language. On the other hand, the names of the 31 days of the month are highly irregular. > tsuitachi > futsuka > mikka > yokka > itsuka > and so on. Maybe there’s some logic but I never learned it. Japanese counting has two number systems - the traditional Japanese counting system (hito, futa, mi, yo) and the Chinese one (ichi, ni, san, shi). For very common counters, such as people, or generic “things”, for the first ten or so numbers they generally use the Japanese counting system, while for others, or for numbers over 10, it’s generally the Chinese. (Except for the number four sometimes, because it sounds like death). It’s the same with days of the month, it goes tsuitachi (lit. a relic from the lunar calendar), then Japanese numbers up to 10, then Chinese numbers for the rest. Except 20, because 20 is special in Japan for reasons I’ve never been able to divine. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/110 "2016-05-14T09:03:56Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Japanese counting has two number systems - the traditional Japanese counting system (hito, futa, mi, yo) and the Chinese one (ichi, ni, san, shi). For very common counters, such as people, or generic “things”, for the first ten or so numbers they generally use the Japanese counting system, while for others, or for numbers over 10, it’s generally the Chinese. (Except for the number four sometimes, because it sounds like death). > > It’s the same with days of the month, it goes tsuitachi (lit. a relic from the lunar calendar), then Japanese numbers up to 10, then Chinese numbers for the rest. > > Except 20, because 20 is special in Japan for reasons I’ve never been able to divine. I should have said “the first few, usually up to a max of ten”. For instance, for people it’s only up to two. It’s definitely arbitrary though. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Windshoeffel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Max\_Windshoeffel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Windshoeffel)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/111 "2016-05-14T09:48:44Z")
> [@robby](#): > > I took two years of German in high school, and a third year in college, and I completely agree. It’s not just the gender of the nouns that drove me nuts; it’s the fact that the [definite articles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_articles#Definite_article) all change depending on the grammatical case of the noun in question. > > So you first learn the nominative (subject) case: _der_ (masculine), _die_ (feminine), _das_ (neuter), _die_ (plural). You do a million drills, and get it drilled into your head that _der_ is masculine, _die_ is feminine, and _das_ is neuter. And you learn that a man is masculine (_der Mann_), a woman is feminine (_die Frau_), a boy is masculine (_der Junge_), but a girl is neuter, for some reason (_das Mädchen_). WTF? That is actually easy to explain: -chen is a diminutive ending, and all diminutive words with -chen are neuter in German. The older and nowadays entirely poetic version, “die Maid”, is still feminine. > [@robby](#): > > Then you learn the accusative (object) case: _den_ (masculine), _die_ (feminine), _das_ (neuter), _die_ (plural). OK, only one change from the nominative case. Good so far. > > But then you learn the dative case, whatever the hell that is, and learn that the articles are now _dem_ (masculine), _der_ (feminine), _dem_ (neuter), _den_ (plural). What, _der_ is feminine now? WTF?! > > And just to top it off, they throw the genitive case at you, and it’s _des_ (masculine), _der_ (feminine), _des_ (neuter), _der_ (plural). Again, WTF? > > The larger question, of course, is why on Earth does any language need **sixteen** different ways to say “the”?! First about the cases: Nominative case is used for the subject of the statement. Der Mann und die Frau tanzen. The Man and the woman dance. Genitive is all about an owner. Der Fuß des Mannes. The foot of the man. Dative is about a indirect object, mostly something or someone stuff is given to. Der Mann schenkt der Frau die roten Rosen. The man gives red flowers to the woman. Accusative is originally about a direct object. There are some rules when an object is used with the dative cases and when with the accusatice case, but they are far from logical, sorry. When you compare Latin and modern Romance languages, you see that Latin did not need prepositions or articles. The word endings signal their case. The romance languages I know have both prepostions and articles. In German, the article forms signify the cases. That allows us to wildly change the word order. Der Mann gab dem Hund den Knochen. Den Knochen gab der Mann dem Hund. Dem Hund der Mann den Knochen gab. Three sentences, three word orders, one definite meaning. You cannot do that in English. In short, English pays for “no cases” with “strict word order” and often “prepostions needed”. > [@robby](#): > > Then you have to learn all sixteen of the [indefinite article endings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_articles#Indefinite_article), and the sixteen definite article-like endings, and I was just about ready to pull my hair out. In practice, when I traveled to Germany and attempted to speak German, I just picked a definite article and/or article ending at random and hoped for the best. :rolleyes: Some use of cases is slowly dying out, just like it happened in Dutch. Genitive case is replaced in the vernacular by von + dative case. Der Fuß von dem Mann. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2016, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/112 "2016-05-14T13:28:16Z")
> [@Max\_Windshoeffel](#): > > That is actually easy to explain: -chen is a diminutive ending, and all diminutive words with -chen are neuter in German. The older and nowadays entirely poetic version, “die Maid”, is still feminine. Same with _-lein_ die Maid (f) — das Mädchen (n) die Frau (f) — das Fräulein (n) ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/113 "2016-05-15T06:09:46Z")
> [@Max\_Windshoeffel](#): > > In German, the article …allows us to wildly change the word order. Der Mann gab dem Hund den Knochen. Den Knochen gab der Mann dem Hund. Dem Hund der Mann den Knochen gab. Three sentences, three word orders, one definite meaning. **You cannot do that in English.** umm…SO WHAT? 🙂 > [@](#): > > English pays for “no cases” with “strict word order”. and again…So what? Is using logical word order a high price to pay? It’s an incredibly simple concept. The problems people have with learning English as a foreign language are _not_ due to the word order. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/114 "2016-05-15T06:53:15Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > umm…SO WHAT? 🙂 > > and again…So what? Is using logical word order a high price to pay? It’s an incredibly simple concept. The problems people have with learning English as a foreign language are _not_ due to the word order. It’s incredible simple to you. But nouns having genders or word order being pretty irrelevant thanks to cases are incredibly simple for those of us who are used to them. Two common mistakes among Hispanics in English have to do precisely with cases in which Spanish doesn’t use gender but English does: all those protestations from Anglophones about “oh noes why oh why do these languages not do away with gender” are a showcase of not realizing how one’s own home works. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/115 "2016-05-15T09:11:45Z")
To this day, I still have problems because in Spanish, I can omit the pronoun, yet have the phrase make complete sense (full sentence). I can’t do that with other languages. French requires the pronoun except for commands, English with its “simple conjugation” does not allow me that. I forget to put the pronoun, and the other person(s) then have to ask me what do I mean. That… does not happen in Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/116 "2016-05-15T11:30:45Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > umm…SO WHAT? 🙂 > > and again…So what? Is using logical word order a high price to pay? It’s an incredibly simple concept. The problems people have with learning English as a foreign language are _not_ due to the word order. There is nothing inherently logical about word order in English. Many other languages have completely different word order. You seem to mistake what you’re used to for the only logical way to say something. If that’s the case, you’re wrong. As a matter of fact, most world languages are SOV (_She him loves_). So, compared to most languages, English word order is illogical. As for your first point: the fact that a language can move words around in a sentence while retaining the same meaning allows lots of nuance in terms of emphasis. In case you don’t realize, it IS a big deal. And actually, English can do that, too to a certain extent but not so freely “I can see that” vs “That can see”. In that respect English is much more limited. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2016, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/117 "2016-05-15T14:02:02Z")
Typo, sorry > [@](#): > > “I can see that” vs “That **I** can see” ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/118 "2016-05-16T01:06:00Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > As a matter of fact, most world languages are SOV (_She him loves_). So, compared to most languages, English word order is illogical. 45% vs 42%, so a very narrow definition of “most.” ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/119 "2016-05-16T01:26:35Z")
“So, there’s 2nd person tense, but when you want to address someone in the 2nd person, you have to use the 3rd person.” “OK - so that means when we speak in the 3rd person I guess we use… the 4th person?” And there’s never a 4th person tense, and nobody ever gets the joke, and screw every language that does this. Give me bullshit gendered nouns over cross-wired verb tenses any day. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2016, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312/120 "2016-05-16T05:36:13Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > 45% vs 42%, so a very narrow definition of “most.” It depends on whether you are looking at enumeration of languages or language prevalence. Arabic and most Hindi-derivative languages are SOV, which covers a very large number of native speakers. It appears as though SOV tends to be a natural order in initial development of language. SVO languages like English are almost always further down the tree, and VSO languages like Gaelic seem to be furthest-removed from their root origins. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-languages-the-wtf-moment-that-made-you-throw-in-the-towel/754312.md?page=7)