# Foreign place names in English **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 8, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999 "2010-07-08T19:18:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![not\_alice](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_alice/32/7283_2.png) [@not\_alice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_alice)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/21 "2010-07-09T04:50:29Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > On the other hand, I hear policy wonks and media outlets alternate freely between “Myanmar” and “Burma.” Being friends with someone who makes an annual, err, lets say, uninvited, trip to Burma for humanitarian purposes, I can assure you that the two terms are not synonymous. **Myanmar** is the name the oppressive regime uses, **Burma** was the name of the country before the oppressive regime. > [@](#): > > It’s also not the case that we change the name when the government changes. We don’t? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/22 "2010-07-09T04:57:30Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Fuque Those Françaises! That’s what we get for cavorting with a country that’s sexy, but of dubious virtues… > > So – you’re saying there was a town in Italy that became “Firenza”, but those Frenchies somehow “evolved” to calling it “Florence”. And we said, “So what do you call this quaint village? Okay, but what do the French call it? Because we need to go with whatever they do.” Yeah, I’m sure there was Latin naming conventions involved, but my point remains: > > **Why not call a city or a country by the name that the inhabitants use?** Shouldn’t they get first dibs on naming it? Well, if I’m having an English-language conversation, I’m not throwing in Paree or Bare-leen for Paris and Berlin. > [@Colibri](#): > > This isn’t of course unique to English-speaking countries. Every country adapts the names of other ones to their own language. The US is the _Estados Unidos_ or _Etats-Unies_ or _Vereinigte Staaten_ elsewhere. > > Spanish tends to translate names even more than English does. For example, an English map of Mexico will show the names of Nuevo Leon, Baja California Norte, and Baja California Sur in Spanish. However, a Spanish map of the US will usually show Dakota del Norte, Nueva York, Virginia Occidental, and so forth, rather than leaving the names in English. The Thais – who do NOT call themselve Siamese – do this too. The United States of America is Saharat Ameriga. Burma is Phama. Japan = Yeepoon. Korea = Gaolee. I can’t think of a single country they call by the “rightful” name. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/23 "2010-07-09T05:06:51Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > And the French didn’t hear “Venezia” and thing “too much trouble; we’ll adapt”. French and Italian are both romance languages; the original names of these places evolved differently as distinct French and Italian languages emerged from a common root. For example, in the case of Florence, it’s Florentia in Latin, which maps directly to Florence in French. English adopted the French name. In Italian, according to the Wikipedia article, it mapped to Fiorenza first but was then modified further to Firenze. > [@acsenray](#): > > Danish Yes, what he was saying is that it’s **not** a Dutch name, but some people pronounce it as if it were one as a kind of hypercorrection. > [@digs](#): > > I think anglicizing foreign names is the height of chauvinism. > > If someone said “Hello, my name is Juan Martinez”, would you say “Nope, sorry, here in Amurrica, we’s gonna call you John-Boy Martin!” > > I play soccer with a lot of fur-ners, and we try hard to pronounce their names the way they do – we don’t call Jhao “John” or “J-Ho”. “Michel” isn’t “Michael” or “Mikey”. But those are personal names. In the case of city of country names, it’s usually the oldest ones that have different versions in different languages. After all, they may have been inhabited by speakers of many different languages during their history. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/24 "2010-07-09T05:12:29Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Yes, what he was saying is that it’s **not** a Dutch name, but some people pronounce it as if it were one as a kind of hypercorrection. What’s Dutch got to do with anything? Is Dutch really the standard example of a language in which \ is typically pronounced “ah”? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/25 "2010-07-09T05:12:39Z")
> [@digs](#): > > **Why not call a city or a country by the name that the inhabitants use?** Shouldn’t they get first dibs on naming it? In that case, you’ll want to refer to England’s capital as Llundain, which is what the linguistic descendants of the ancient Britons call it (or Londra, which is what they currently call it in Rome). Both Latin and Brythonic were spoken in Londinium centuries before the English got there, and the Brythons, at least, have maintained a continuous if minority presence in the countries of which London has been the capital.\* Dublin will be Baile Átha Cliath, and good luck with multilingual towns like Biel / Bienne in Switzerland. \*Nit-pickers: Okay, there’s a possible hiatus between the Saxon takeover and the conquest by King Alfred, who definitely had Brythonic-speakers in what is now Hereford and Cornwall. No data on minority languages in 8th-century Essex. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/26 "2010-07-09T05:33:46Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > What’s Dutch got to do with anything? Is Dutch really the standard example of a language in which \ is typically pronounced “ah”? I have no idea, but that’s what **Hyperelastic** was saying. Copenhagen is _København_ in Danish anyway. ETA: I guess that’s kind of like people trying to pronounce “parmesan” in an Italian way, even though the real Italian word is _parmigiano_. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/27 "2010-07-09T05:42:27Z")
C’mon, let’s make it a LAW to go native with pronounciation! Can’t you just picture Joe Half-Barrel trying to wrap his lips around _ **København** _\*? And man, would it cheese\*/fromage\* off the radio pundits. Especailly if Obama decreed it. ```auto * I'm sitting here repeating it, working on my *Kyöo* sound, and it's fun! ``` ---
**Author:** ![tingbudong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tingbudong/32/520_2.png) [@tingbudong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tingbudong)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/28 "2010-07-09T06:13:24Z")
> [@](#): > > This isn’t of course unique to English-speaking countries. Every country adapts the names of other ones to their own language. The US is the Estados Unidos or Etats-Unies or Vereinigte Staaten elsewhere. > > Spanish tends to translate names even more than English does. For example, an English map of Mexico will show the names of Nuevo Leon, Baja California Norte, and Baja California Sur in Spanish. However, a Spanish map of the US will usually show Dakota del Norte, Nueva York, Virginia Occidental, and so forth, rather than leaving the names in English. I agree and it is possible that most languages practice this. There is a Mandarin word for almost every geographic place name including my tiny Northern Canadian hometown, population 2000. Unless they are speaking English, my friends on the Mainland will never refer to locations in Canada by their Canadian names. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/29 "2010-07-09T06:16:05Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > There is an enormous snob factor involved here. Your typical organic-agave-swilling Trader Joe’s shopper believes that the more foreign-sounding a pronunciation, the more sophisticated and credible the speaker. This kind of thinking has brought us people who pronounce “Copenhagen” as “Copenhoggen” even though it’s not even a Dutch word. I think my favorite is Munich, pronounced Mü-nikkh. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/30 "2010-07-09T06:25:30Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > I think my favorite is Munich, pronounced Mü-nikkh. How else are we supposed to pronounce it? Phonetic spelling might not work too well here, maybe the “kkh” part is supposed to be a phlegmy phoneme? Most English speakers can’t really say the “ü” sound; the closest we get is the “u” in “hue,” although that’s longer. Myoo-nik is how most I’ve heard say it, but I haven’t heard many affectations besides attempts at München. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/31 "2010-07-09T06:28:46Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > How else are we supposed to pronounce it? Phonetic spelling might not work too well here, maybe the “kkh” part is supposed to be a phlegmy phoneme? Most English speakers can’t really say the “ü” sound; the closest we get is the “u” in “hue,” although that’s longer. Myoo-nik is how most I’ve heard say it, but I haven’t heard many affectations besides attempts at München. No, no, that’s the point: you’re supposed to say Myoo-nick /'mjunIk/, because it’s an English word, but I’ve heard people pronounce it Mü-nikkh /'mynIç/ as if it were a German word. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/32 "2010-07-09T06:38:15Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > No, no, that’s the point: you’re supposed to say Myoo-nick /'mjunIk/, because it’s an English word, but I’ve heard people pronounce it Mü-nikkh /'mynIç/ as if it were a German word. Thanks, the IPA helps (even if it looks like the alphabet vomited on the screen if you don’t know IPA). I’d think most anglophones would mangle the “y” part, unless they spoke German or French. Oh, I will admit to a preference for Genova over Genoa. The latter looks more foreign to English tongues to me; also like it has too many vowels just clashing and asking for a consonant. I’ve never look pretentious because it doesn’t really come up in conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/33 "2010-07-09T07:50:17Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Hey, rest of the world: how do **you** feel about Yankees walking around saying “Sure is wicked cool to be chillin’ here in Myoooonick, Germany! Whatchoo say to that, Adolf? Want a sip o’ my Pabst?” Jesús, dude, take a cold shower! I feel about it like I feel about calling London Londres or Paris París or Firenze (Firenze, not Firenza) Florencia. I even pronounce the same city’s name as Miami if I’m speaking Spanish and Mayaami if I’m speaking English. So? I’m from a bilingual area, every town has two names in the two local languages. So? For many of them there isn’t even a way to determine which name came first! Should I say I was born in Pompaelo, to avoid offending the ghost of any Roman soldiers still haunting the area? Take it easy, man… ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/34 "2010-07-09T08:56:37Z")
It’s not just countries, when my folks came to this country in the mid 40s their last names were sliced in half and they were given new first names. I’m the only member of my family (the only one born here) with an “American” name so to speak. When I was a kid, people would say “I’m Ivan, but call me John.” So why not change the name? I knew a girl from the Netherlands, Petra. I once asked her why she told people she was from Holland. She said, “I always tell Americans that, if you tell an American you’re from the Netherlands, they don’t know what I’m talking about. If I say ‘Holland,’ they know right away.” It’s not only countries. Look at the Baltic Sea. It’s known by a bunch of different names. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/35 "2010-07-09T10:24:21Z")
Americans cannot even agree on how to pronounce _American_ place names. Take Oregon, New Orleans, and Lancaster, for example. As far as place names as named by foreigners, see the unofficial FAQ: [**Why do we have different names for countries and cities than the natives of those places?**](http://www.seiglefamily.com/gqfaq.html#names) That page has links to many related threads, plus a link to the definitive article by **Cecil**. However, the OP also discusses pronunciation. Saying “France” using an American accent to rhyme with “dance” is simply an approximation based on how we pronounce things. But saying eye-RACK is not an approximation of the original that simply allows for different sounds. The spelling “Iraq” is a transliteration from the Arabic, which is intended to guide an approximate English pronunciation (ih-RAHQ where the sound represented by Q does not exist in English but is like a K farther back in the throat, similar to the “c” in “calm”). Then people look at that spelling and mispronounce it using more conventional phonetic rules, rather than Arabic transliteration rules. Perfectly understandable if you had never, ever heard it pronounced correctly. Christiane Amanpour did a [funny TV ad for CNN](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0jrLazqjn0)a while back where she corrects someone (although her “correct” pronunciation is still not quite right). ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/36 "2010-07-09T13:56:42Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > In certain circles, pronouncing “Iraq” as Eye-RACK will get you written off as an unsophisticated rube. But the same people who scoff at that have no compunction about rhyming “France” with “dance.” Anyone unironically using the pronunciation [fʁɑ̃s] in an English-language context risks being considered a pretentious twit. In the UK the long vowel vs short vowel argument is, broadly speaking, a northern accent vs southern accent thing. So in vast areas of the country the “correct” is very similar to how the French say it. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/37 "2010-07-09T13:58:15Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > The country was named Burma for many years, until the military junta told everyone to call it “Myanmar.” There are historical reasons which make both attractive. The US government along with several others has a dispute with their government, and so we call them Burma in a big FU. Yet the US media nearly always refers to the country as “Myanmar”. Your rarely hear that name in use in the UK, by Government nor media. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/38 "2010-07-09T13:59:51Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > There is an enormous snob factor involved here. Your typical organic-agave-swilling Trader Joe’s shopper believes that the more foreign-sounding a pronunciation, the more sophisticated and credible the speaker. This kind of thinking has brought us people who pronounce “Copenhagen” as “Copenhoggen” even though it’s not even a Dutch word. It’s also responsible for the reintroduction of accent marks on certain American place names such as San Jose. > > Disclosure: I love Trader Joe’s and shop there every week. It was only recently, via The Daily Show, that I realised that some people in the US pronounce the city “Copenhaahgen” instead of “Copenhaygen”. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/39 "2010-07-09T14:03:24Z")
And whilst we’re at it, which is “right”: “Moscow” rhyming with “cow” or “oh”? And yes, I know how the Russian’s pronounce it 😉 I gather the English pronunciation comes via German. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999/40 "2010-07-09T14:22:30Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Yes, what he was saying is that it’s **not** a Dutch name, but some people pronounce it as if it were one as a kind of hypercorrection. That doesn’t make any sense. It’s not an Algonquian name either, or an Ingushetian name. The point is that “Copenhagen” isn’t a Danish word, so people shouldn’t try to pronounce it the way they think Danish people might pronounce it. (That most Americans have no idea how Danish is pronounced is a different issue. Of all the languages I’ve encountered, the phonology of Danish confuses me the most.) Dutch doesn’t even enter into it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/foreign-place-names-in-english/545999.md?page=3)